Question from RM:
What the hell … No hell ?? 🙂
I came across this interesting article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201803/smile-there-is-no-hell-even-the-pope-says-so
As an atheist it’s amusing to me and it’s obvious that religion (in this case, Christianity) is trying to align with modern times.
Some theists who comment on this website are, however, moving in the opposite direction.
So to the theists (although this is still ask-the-atheist) – why do you think the pope’s decided there’s no hell? Will he go to hell for this blasphemy?
Do tell. I’m eager to hear the rationalizations 🙂
Answer by SmartLX:
Few of the regulars are Catholics and therefore few may put any stock in what the Pope says, let alone have to defend the doctrine that his word is infallible and therefore accept whatever he says. Even for Catholics the concept of Hell isn’t licked yet; the Vatican has claimed that the interview is a “reconstruction” rather than a transcript, so it’s far from official at this stage.
Still, this was declared as a question for theists for a change, so feel free to comment and hold forth on Hell, the Pope, changes to doctrine over the centuries, or anything you can tie back to this interesting bit of news.
8 thoughts on “Hell: Pope vs Doctrine”
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What’s the problem, can’t the POPE say the TRUTH for ONCE, but he should have said the WHOLE truth, that there is NO GOD, no PARADISE, no HELL, and NO AFTERLIFE.
When you DIE, you are DEAD FOR ALL THE ETERNITY.
Just as you had been before you were born.
THAT would be NEWS.
The truth is not what you want to here. You want to here something that will suit you in the present state at which you find yourself.
As for the Pope’s denial that there is a hell,
“Hell does not exists as of yet. And no one who has died has gone to heaven without first having received a new body to make him a living soul. There are no dead souls who will go to heaven or hell. At least not until after Christ returns and the judgement has begun. Remember Christ says that judgement begins when He returns. That is when the “wheat” is separated from the “tares”. So how can God sentence anyone to hell without them first having appeared before the judgement seat, receiving their sentence and then having the punishment. So for right now there is no hell.
There are plenty of verses in the Bible that clearly show that when a person dies, they go to sleep. The Bible doesn’t say that the body goes to sleep. The Bible clearly says that the person who dies goes to sleep. And wait for Christ to wake them from death.
First we have God telling Adam in Genesis 2, that if they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would die. He said specifically “You will surely die”. Once again, He didn’t say their bodies would die. He said, “You will surely die”.
Satan comes and contradicts God. And says that they would not. But who will a Christian believe, God or satan?
But there is more to support this. Look at Genesis 3:19.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Once again we see that God does not say that Adam’s body would return to the dust. But that “and to dust “you” will return”
Also look at Ecclesiastes 9:10.
” Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”
So we see once again,, that the person goes back to the “dust”, or to the grave. It will not be just the shell, for the person is part of the shell. And that person goes to sleep. Look also at verses 5 and 6.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”
Then look at Job 14:14.
“If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”
Just what change is Job talking about. For that let’s skip to
1 Thessalonians 4. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Paul says that the dead are sleeping in Jesus Christ.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
So all who die right now will be sleeping in the grave until Christ returns to take His followers home. They will be resurrected and given immortal bodies. Which we are not now. That is right we are not immortal. In fact the Bible clearly tells us that there is only one Person that is immortal.
1 Timothy tells us. “15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.”
And God tells us in Genesis 3, that He prevented Adam from becoming immortal. Please look at Genesis 3: ” Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden”
God tells us that He did not allow man to eat and become immortal. God did not say that He did this so that Adam’s body would not live for ever, but that Adam would not live forever.
Finally one more thing. John 3:16 tell us clearly who will live forever. It says ” “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” Here we see that the only ones who will inherit eternal life or immortality, are those who believe in Him, or believe in Christ.
So if man is not immortal, then no person who has died apart from Christ could be living in hell, because for one hell is not yet, because Judgement day has not arrived and because man is not immortal, and only those who accept and believe in Christ will receive eternal life.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire–a-twisted-truth-untangled
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell-
gerard, hear, not here
the bible is a book written by the religious. it is like a statement of a thief about not having stolen. thus, it does not count. what would count would be statements of witnesses. this is what science does, tries to find the truth about the crime a thief supposedly did. the judge listens, not only the accused of theft, the supposed thief, reads his statement…the bible…but then asks the witnesses. the science. you are like a judge that asks the accused thief if he stole. he would say no, of course. but, science has no prejudices, it just looks for the objective truth. the bible is not objective. it is like a statement of the accused thief, who, of course, says he did not steal. what other lie would he say, naturally he will deny having stolen. and thus the bible says it all pro the lie it has been spreading for eons. cool off, gerard.
So then, Gerald, according to what you are saying, when Christians die currently they go to sleep (to be woken up on judgement day)?
That’s interesting.
May I ask what you think (or know) happens to non-Christians? So they also go to sleep in Christ (though they are doomed at judgement day anyway since they did not believe in Christ).
And then you would agree I guess that the angels – fallen on otherwise, do not exist yet (?)
If they do exist, then their activities must also be in limbo (sort of?) or at-least restricted to influencing the living only? Are they allowed to influence the living even without taking a (seemingly) mortal form like Christ? What of free will?
And then all these accounts about NDEs etc are just fabrications right?
Because when one dies one goes to sleep in Christ, an NDE is a fully incorrect portrayal of what happens.
And re-incarnations are just non-sense then (past life regressions/ children remembering past lives etc.) as the person who has existed must sleep till judgement day. He/ she cannot wake up and “try again” to “improve their score”, so to speak.
The sleeping till judgment day must necessarily cut away a lot of folk-lore, superstitions and new-age bunkum connected with religion (?)
Or am I missing something?
Btw, I read that the POPE had said that he, of course, RECOGNIZED, not only the EVOLUTION as FACTUAL, but BIG BANG, too, but, then added, perhaps it was during a conversation with Stephen Hawking, to, please, leave to his god the previous happenings, i.e. what led to the Big Bang, not realizing, of course, that there had not be anything prior to the Big Bang, because this was the moment that, science says, TIME AND SPACE BEGAN. Kinda.
RM. I must have not made myself clear. All who live upon this planet, or who have ever lived, when they die, unless there is a direct intervention by God, will go to sleep in the dust. Genesis 3:5. ” In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”.
Job 34:15. “All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.”
So all wait, “If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.” Job 14:14
And read Revelation 20. Especially verses 4-6. Then notice verse 7. Condensing the coming events. This is what will happen. The dead are sleeping. But there will be some still living when Christ returns. When He returns those who have not accepted Him will, “With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“At that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth” (Jeremiah 25:33).
“And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming”, 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
But the righteous dead will be brought back to life and made immortal. And then the righteous living will be changed.
“51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15.
Please read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
The wicked remain dead until the 1000 years have ended. And then following some more temptation by the Devil, Revelation 20:9. But read all the chapter and then read Revelation 21. Please pay attention to the fire from Heaven and the lake of fire. And notice the part where it says the wicked will have their part in the lake of fire. The part about their part, means also that they will not be punished indefinitely by suffering. But that they will die forever.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire–a-twisted-truth-untangled
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1000-years-of-peace
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/785/f/6/t/fate-of-the-wicked
Oh and yes there are angels. The Bible mentions them too many times for us to have made a mistake about them being actual beings.
And you are right about the NDE’s experiences. And re-incarnation. They were deceptions that satan used to make them believe lies.
And no. There are no more chances to change their minds, once death takes hold of a person. Or when Christ returns. Then this will be what is in charge. “11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22.
The cutting away of the dross, is done because God’s Word is used to reveal the truth.
It can be trusted. Because God can be trusted.