The Exodus: I Now Call To The Stand…EVERYBODY!

Question from Avi:
Could 3 million ppl be wrong?

Judaism unlike other religions makes the claim that exodus was witnessed by the entire Jewish ppl.
In the case of Jesus walking on water, there weren’t all that many witnesses and it is therefore hard to be certain of its validity. But exodus was witnessed by 3 million ppl.
How do atheists explain this?

Answer by SmartLX:
The point I make when discussing 1 Corinthians 15, which says 500 people supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus, is that an account of X number of witnesses is not the same as that many witness accounts. The Torah says 600,000 adult males saw the Exodus and the total figure of 3 million was estimated in the 1st century CE based on that. This is not 3 million or even 600,000 claims but rather the claim of just one writer in the 5th or 6th century BCE, regarding a supposed event in the 13th century BCE (best guess so far, among those that think it happened at all). That’s 700-800 years on, in a culture which did the vast majority of its storytelling and record-keeping via word of mouth – proudly so, as they celebrate with events like the Passover Seder.

This vast distance between the event and the documentation does not speak well for the authenticity of the event, especially in the absence of any other substantial evidence for it, and even several factors actively contradicting parts of it. More details here.

24 thoughts on “The Exodus: I Now Call To The Stand…EVERYBODY!”

  1. It has become really BORING, reading and commenting the trials of the religious folks to fight SCIENCE over the fact that there is no proof of existence of any ‘god’ ever.

    So, I give up.

    And, GERALD, please don’t address ME with your accounts, even more boring than that of the others. I can’t read your stuff. Thank you

    1. Fact. The Exodus, is mentioned in more than one book of the Bible. Remember that the books of the Bible had were written at different times over thousands of years. The Exodus is in a good many of the Old Testament and some books in the New Testament.
      And contrary to SmartX’s statement that, ” especially in the absence of any other substantial evidence”.

      There is evidence. This on its own would be an eye opener to any one else, other than those who are just aching to knock God off of His throne.

      But there is more evidence for the Exodus than much else that is or isn’t part of mostly myth related.

      The Exodus is not only mentioned in the Bible but also in the historical records of at the very least Egypt.

      Mentioned in “Wikipedia”

      And some of the more accepted occurrences in history has as little or just as much or a little more evidence than what the Exodus had. And the records are not any more invalid than the Bible’s accounts. Yet, there are not many standing around denying these other occurrences.

      1. Any book of the Bible written after Exodus that mentions the event was likely referring to the story of Exodus already being passed down by Jews, or else the Book of Exodus itself. It’s difficult to impossible to establish them as independent sources.

        Your first two links concerning King Solomon and Alexander the Great do not mention Moses, the Exodus or Hebrew slaves in Egypt at all.

        The Ancient Origins article gets to this statement pretty quickly: “But we do not find even one contemporary inscription from the relevant period that records any of these events.” The thrust of its later argument is that the story was suppressed in Egypt until 500-1000 years later when Egyptian historians like Manetho began to mention the Exodus.

        These mentions are however only Flavius Josephus’ interpretation another 300 years later, when he identified the “shepherd-king” Hyskos in Manetho’s writings as “captive shepherds” and therefore Israelite slaves. This is a major stretch to even establish an indirect relation to the Exodus, let alone the existence of Moses or any miracles that might have occurred.

        1. And please remember that the discussion itself is itself pointing to the validity of Moses. And the other sources that suggest another time for the occurrence, are just that suggestions. Not actually true. But at least there is support for the character and the occurrence.

          Just because all of the exact details have not been found as the Bible says, does not mean that it did not happen as the Bible says.
          And the times when mentioned that you wished, seems to be the only reference to the Exodus, does not mean that it was the Exodus only with inflated facts. It is widely known that there were times when Egypt went to war, and not a stretch of the imagination that there other instances when “slaves” were taken.

          And you find it so easy to ignore a common practice where Egypt and other nations erased embarrassing historical facts from their history. And the Exodus was a big embarrassment for the ruler of Egypt, that not only was forced to allow their slaves to leave, and pay them to do so, but also to lose most if not all of his army. I’d say, this would have been a very big reason to erase his blunder.

          You are being less than honorable for not recognizing that what is provided is enough to support the Biblical account.

          Your prejudice is showing SmartLx. And it is affecting your ability to accept truth.

          1. There’s no doubt that Egypt took slaves. There’s just no evidence that they ever had Hebrew slaves. This absence of evidence is not hard evidence that there never were Hebrew slaves, but nor is it evidence that the presence of such slaves was concealed or repressed. The idea that the story of the Exodus was deliberately left out of Egyptian history for so long is not impossible but it is nevertheless an excuse for the hole in the story, nothing more. And it’s a conspicuous hole to try to cover, especially considering that it would have included the spontaneous death of half a generation – and the Pharaoh’s heir – in one night.

      2. i gladly read only your name and the first word ‘fact’. then i even more gladly went down and down and more down, until i reached the bottom of your crap.
        and, since it is obvious that you have had so far only LX and ME, to read your stuff, now that you lost me, you have only poor LX, who HAS to read your babbling, so as to see if you are not bulsh.tting too much. you have no audience dear gerard. buy buy

    2. Niki,
      I’m an atheist. Please stop. You’re not bringing anything to this site-mediation, facts, or well written paragraphs.

      You’re giving us a bad name.


      1. Niki, while not necessarily agreeing with the above I will add that you are under no obligation to respond to everything people like Gerald say or might say. Having the last word is only important in a formal debate where one needs to be “ahead on points” at an arbitrary end time. Gerald doesn’t “win” if he goes unanswered unless he actually convinces someone of something, which to my knowledge hasn’t ever happened.

        1. You are right, as always. I will have that in mind, but, I feel provoked every time he speaks to me, I even asked him not to, but he ignored that and continued to unnerve me, I know he knows that and does it purposefully, just in spite. He CITES BIBLE TO ME, HEY, TO MEEE!

        2. Niki. You don’t have to fight all religion. Just the ignorant kind. Just like you should be fighting the ignorance of those who who don’t believe in God.

          God is. There is no doubt about that. You saying that there is no proof for God, does not mean that there is evidence that there is no God.
          And once again, anything is available to list as evidence.
          Up to now, the atheists have not been able to use how life came to be as evidence to support evolution. But Creationism tells us how life came to be. God did it.

        3. I have always thought that this site was to share and grow. Not one to make enemies.
          I wouldn’t think that what someone believes would be reason enough to cause someone to respond with animosity.

          To attempt to use this as a force to push people away from this site, does not speak well for this site.
          And I have nothing other than a desire to provide the “other side of the isle’s” reason for why we believe in God.

          Aside from that I have always asked for the physical proof for anyone to support in Evolution. To which I have only been provided more of what the Evolutionists same way to respond.
          “Evolution is true; There is a mountain of evidence;” Or they come up with a hear say statement acting like this is evidence, when they know that all they are providing is what they think happened. And not providing actual laboratory induced evidence that confirms their “hear say”. Or at least offer arguments that shows my arguments are not important or they are illogical. But nothing is offered.

      2. Tthere are NO FACTS about ‘god’, besides, I am waiting for SmartLX to tell me I am doing something wrong. Until then I will say what I think is right. I am fighting religion here, and the fact that you, too, are an atheist, does not necessarily mean that we are both fighters. I feel you are not. Too nice. But, do you ask THEM to be nice towards us, too? Google ‘the most hated group in America’. You will find it is atheists.

    3. And religious folks, at least not most Christians are not fighting science. This is a lie that you would prefer to believe. But Christian were the scientists of the past. And Christians of today, accept fact. Not imaginary occurrences that are not supported by science. And that is exactly what Evolution is. Imaginary.

  2. The Bible was not called the Bible until all the books in the Bible were in the Bible. Until then those books were random writings just like any other ancient writings.

    But the mystery comes when it was found that all of these, “books” written over two thousand years, by different authors, who did not know one another, were found to all have one major theme. Picking up one after another, and pointing to the One God of the Universe.

    My links although not mentioning Moses, was referring to other characters of history who did not have much to support their validity. But when the Bible is seen as the several books of history that the truly are, they provide more support for Moses and all other occurrences of the Bible.
    And this is especially true when all of what the Bible has been used to validate occurrences of the past. And no one has ever found the Bible to be wrong.

    1. Have you ever visited a fan fiction website? Hundreds or thousands of stories by separate authors adhering closely to a common theme and characters to maintain their status as fanfics. Believers in God will write about God, and common beliefs will produce common themes in their writing. To claim any more than that in the case of the Bible requires more knowledge about the independence of the writers than we will ever have.

      There are certainly figures like Alexander the Great for whom direct evidence is scant but whose existence historians as a group will happily accept really lived. What they will not accept is that any of them performed miracles. As soon as the supernatural becomes part of a historical claim, all comparison to already-accepted historical claims is inapplicable, because there is no standard of evidence for officially accepting the supernatural as historical – unless compelled by a politically powerful religion. Since the supernatural parts of the Exodus story are the most important parts to you, as they support God’s influence and the correctness of the Bible, you will find no support in the tenets of academia.

      Just because those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible will never accept that it’s been found to be wrong or inconsistent doesn’t mean that hasn’t happened, and often. The list is long, and just because people have made the effort to answer every point doesn’t mean the answers are all valid. You can claim what you need to claim to maintain your own beliefs, but it holds little power outside your own head.

  3. SmartLx. What you mentioned above, is what is possible for today. Not for the writers of the Bible in biblical times. They were separated by time. They did not have our wonderful means of communication and did not have the internet to research what they should say. As I said, what God accomplished in giving us His Word, is in itself a miracle. For it to flow so harmoniously from one page to another. Beginning and completing the sentences and thoughts of each other. This is something that better men than you and I have marveled over for centuries. This is one of the reasons why better Atheists than you have bent over backwards to try and prove that this book was not unlike any other literature from the past.

    And as you said, there is very little evidence for other historical figures from long ago. But the Bible has been proven to be a reliable source for historical facts. It has been proven accurate, in so far as what has been said, even when called into question, has always been found to be spot on.

    Now has all of what it says been verified? No. But there are still scrolls also found where these where most of this Bible has been found but which can not yet be read due to their fragility of the material on which they were written. But I recently read of a new device, that is able to read the text on these scrolls, without even unrolling them. And they are beginning to find out more about this wonderful book. Please take note that the scroll mentioned was found to be part of Leviticus. An older copy then what we had before. And they say that it supports the Leviticus we have today.
    The Bible, or rather the books of the Bible have more copies of it, a mountain more copies, than any other historical work. And they have been found to be so harmoniously intertwined, that they support one another without discrepancies.

    As I said, the Bible is a marvelously, unique work of the past. And it is a book for our time today and for all times.

    Stop fighting it. Accept the truth within its pages and you will be accepted for all eternity.

  4. Niki, I still find no arguments offered by you to disprove anything of what I offered. Maybe you just failed to add it. I forget sometimes. So please provide this proof.

  5. Gerald is the good example of why most atheists despise religion. He is ignorant and of low i.q. yet, he has a good heart, of an idiot, thou, but, being oblivious of what science is, he says stupidities as is the one that science, and this time I, here, has/have,

    NO PROOF of ‘god’s NON existence. !!!

    So, I will have to call EINSTEIN once again, to help me, for the umpteenth time, his famous saying, that he is NOT sure of the endlessness of the UNIVERSE, but IS of STUPIDITY. I will add, of IGNORANCE, too.

    Gerald proves this.

  6. Thanks Niki. Funny. But still no proof that what I have said is not true. Are you, trying to hide the fact that what you believe is not true. And that it can not be proven?

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