Question from Joel:
I spent 5 years outside of the United States within the last decade, and I had the opportunity to travel all over the world. I used the time to define myself and what I believe in. I have close friends and colleagues that claim Atheism, but there are bridges that I just cannot cross. Although I have questioned my beliefs time and time again. In some third world nations I have come across people who can move things. Some seem to only have the power to move things on flat surfaces, where others could literally suspend things in air. They say their talents come from spiritual worship. My question to you would be, can there be a spiritual world and no God?
Answer:
No need for the capital A, as I often say. If it’s theism instead of Theism, it’s atheism instead of Atheism.
To answer your question directly, just about anything’s possible. Many people believe in spiritual energies which are too nebulous to fit common definitions of gods, and yet have the ability to affect physical things in the ways you describe.
– Take for instance the Chinese concept of qi (pronounced chee, sometimes written as chi or ki). Some believers in qi think it comes from gods or godlike beings, but not all the believers do.
– Another instance is karma.
– The most famous such concept in contemporary fiction is probably the Force.
So according to many belief systems, the people you met could be mistaken about the source of their powers, if in fact they’re real. The reality of their abilities is where I would focus my attention: how could we prove or debunk these apparent acts of telekinesis? There might be a reason why they’re done in remote parts of the world, away from scrutiny.
– SmartLX
Telekinesis and the Laws of Science
“Many people believe in spiritual energies which are too nebulous to fit common definitions of gods, and yet have the ability to affect physical things in the ways you describe.”
I tend to believe that many of these manifestations that are visible and occur in this world are of the god of this world, Satan. To paraphrase Augustus, what man can do with shape and color, Satan can do all that much more.
That’s a clever and protective way of looking at the world, JD, when you think about it. If any religion other than Christianity is the right one, physical effects of the real deities or supernatural forces which don’t fit the modus operandi of the God of Abraham can be written off as the work of the devil.
I’m interested in your statement that Satan is “the god of this world”. Is it standard evangelical doctrine that Satan rules the middle as well as the bottom? If not, what’s your denomination?
Oh, it’s pretty mainstream, Christian theology LX.
One instance that is often cited is Matthew 4: 8-10
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only”
If one accepts that Jesus is the Son of God, then why didnt He inform Satan that he can’t give what isnt his? There are other verses as well that state Satan is the ruler of this realm.
Thanks for that. Considering only this passage, the next question would be whether Jesus had full access to God’s knowledge and necessarily knew what Satan could legitimately offer, but theology is more up your alley.
I really must cite those statistics that I mentioned earlier from D’Souza. It dispells much of which you posted on your “theology” link. Yes, I do believe that Jesus had God’s knowledge given that he is part of the Trinity.
For those who came in late, on his own blog JD mentioned statistics about the growth of Christianity from What’s so Great About Christianity?
I don’t doubt that Christianity as a whole is growing. Most religions are, by sheer population growth, and Christianity has dibs on a third of that. The effectiveness of Christian theology as an apologetic tool, if it can be measured through population at all, will be indicated by where the new Christians have come from. Are they children of Christian parents, or were they Christians of another denomination (cannibalised) or are they new converts? If the latter, from which other religion or irreligious position have they converted? In short, what demographic does all the apologetic actually affect?
If D’Souza’s stats have answers to the above, go ahead and finally reveal the relevant ones. The rise of one church in one country, without reference to the others (evangelicals in France), tells us very little.
Read this if ur a logical person……………. Have. U not read and seen. Have u not herd of the grat flood that put sea shells on mountains. Have u not herd have u not read that god hangs the earth off of nothing. Have u not read have u not herd do u not see. How rare life it self is. Have u not read have u not herd see were it says the earth is a sphere . Why would u be aginst christainty because ur aginst love one another or ur aganst helping even ur enimy . What have we done to u or science in fact there are theorys proving god is real . Nothing can face god and win. The bible is older than u think sure there’s a scientific explantion for the pleags but look at the timeing is there a scientific explantion for all that hapinig to te egeptions and not te isrial lites and how do the isral lites exscape so perfectly. And it did hapen even in history not just the bible have u not read some of the war that has happend in the bible they are also recorded in history. The bible dosent controdict it self it suplements it self. Yes judas hang him self that dosent mean he died hanging him self. After he left to the land that was bought with the silver and all his intrials (intestains. ) spiled out mathew and john mite be out of order when jesus left to the desert but were they there in the desert with jesus . So jesus told them. And they did not put this hapend 1st 2end and last. Wow u blame christians for problems yet u don’t see the history or the science In it u find every way to prove us wrong but u don’t. Yes we sin and true christains repent . And o become a christan belive in jesus god and the holy spirit and repent and be baptized. But one of our things is we got to help people to heven . I know some of u don’t like it cause we bring up hell . But I tell u jesus has a reward for who dose right so be christain if u want the etanal life and the reward from heven . The holy bible is inspierd by god. And they are way more fact in the bible than what I just said . I’m a scientest and a christan and I’m not delusional just cause u haven’t seen herd or belived . Another coment (there are paths in the water. A christain man looked to serch for theses path in te water. There know as currents to day. Well I love u wether u hate me or not just want the best for every one. Ope u see my point was not out of hate but love and. People need to check all te facts. Prove me wtong check every fact in the bible. I haven’t found nothingnot true in th bible . What other book has facts like that. If u say history book ten u just porived my point. Just check it out. U can’t get mad at facts. And it wouldent bother me if they were aliens . Why not? So prove me wrong and I want facts not acuztions check the bible out for ur self. Peace
Okay, here we go.
– Ancient seashells on mountains can be explained by the way mountains are formed: tectonic activity pushes flat earth straight up, like a less violent version of a volcano. The sea didn’t carry the shells up there, the ancient seabed rose with the shells attached.
– In Job 26, Job says God hung the earth on nothing. In Job 9, he says the earth is on pillars. In Job 38, he says it’s on foundations. He gave multiple, mutually exclusive, almost completely opposite accounts of the state of the earth. One of them had to be right, and the others had to be wrong.
– Life is probably rare because the circumstances needed for it to emerge are also very rare among planets. That doesn’t make it impossible without divine help.
– The Hebrew word used in “He sits on the circle of the earth” is shuwg, which means “circle” or “circuit” at least as much as it means “sphere”. It might mean that either the earth is flat or that it looks like a circle when you’re looking from a high place.
– “Love one another” is not exclusive to Christianity. Most religions, and many secular moral systems, say the same kind of thing.
– If there are scientific theories that prove God is real, tell us what they are.
– I think a lot of the stuff about Israelites and Judas is in response to objections I haven’t made, and of which I’m not even aware. I will say that the Israelites were well aware of many prophecies about them, and actively worked to make them come true.
– I don’t mind that Christians proselytise. It’s what they believe they have to do, and I’m not going to try to stop them unless they try to do it on behalf of the state, or to captive audiences.
– Okay, you’re a Christian, but what kind of scientist are you? I hope you use a better spellchecker when you write papers for other scientists to peer review.
– Any sailor knows about currents, even sailors from thousands of years ago. “Paths in the water” were common knowledge as soon as there were boats.
– There is a lot in the Bible which is true. Some of it is set in real places which still exist today, like Rome and Egypt. That doesn’t mean that the supernatural, untestable claims are also true. Just because Forrest Gump went to the White House doesn’t mean Forrest Gump is real.