Universe(tm) – No God Required

Question from Jhon Roy:
How did the universe existed if there was/is no God to create it, do you want us Christians to believe that out of nothing, the universe began to exist??? It is indeed illogical. Steven Hawking said that because of gravity the universe can create itself, but as I told you before the universe began to exist, there was just nothing, no gravity, nor force. Now answer my question.

Answer by SmartLX:
Non-believers aren’t asking Christians to believe anything about this topic. There are many different ways our present universe might exist, and atheists don’t arbitrarily declare without evidence that a particular one of them is fact. We wait for scientists to uncover evidence favouring one hypothesis over all others, because they’re the only ones finding any relevant evidence at all. All I would ask is that because many of the possibilities do not involve a god, you accept for now that as far as we know the universe isn’t necessarily impossible without a god, and therefore its mere existence isn’t currently proof of a god all by itself.

Regarding the specifics of your argument:

  • How do you know there was nothing before the universe began to exist? You think God existed before the universe did, so why couldn’t something else? Another universe, for example?
  • How do you know the universe even began to exist, and didn’t always exist in some form? You think God always existed; it’s even simpler if the universe always did instead, because then we don’t have to try to explain the existence of a god as well as the universe.
  • Anything creating itself is by definition impossible because it implies an action by an entity which does not exist during the action, but Stephen Hawking’s ideas about the beginning of the universe involve the simultaneous emergence of time, making the concept of “before” irrelevant. Why can’t it have happened the way he describes, other than that it sounds wrong to you? Why can’t the universe behave in an un-intuitive manner, given how limited our intuition is? If it’s so obviously unworkable, why hasn’t a super-brain like Hawking or any of his colleagues realised it and hastily re-worked large sections of A Brief History of Time?

    • Incidentally, the simple fact that you’ve asked a question is reason enough for us to answer it. You don’t then have to order us to answer it.

    Death and Children

    Question from Francesca:
    What do atheists tell their children when the children show fear of dying?

    Answer by SmartLX:
    Much the same as believers, I’d say.

    I’d say this because the idea of an afterlife does little to mitigate the fear of death, and in fact appears to exacerbate it. I can claim this empirically, because studies have found that fear of death is positively correlated with religiosity in multiple countries and religions, and anecdotally, because stories of people’s lasting fear of Hell are all over the place. Even if you’re a believer, to comfort a child using your religion you have to leave out parts of the doctrine your religion would consider essential and focus only on Heaven, and you’ll still probably instill lifelong fears.

    So once religious parents try the Heaven thing and find later that their children are still afraid, they have to continue to comfort the kids in other, secular terms, which is what atheists do from the outset. There are plenty of approaches to this, including but not limited to the following:

    – Emphasise that death is a long, LONG way off for children, and those who love them will help them to live for as long as possible.
    – Say that whatever suffering and stress there is in this life stop at death, and the deceased no longer have the same pains or cares.
    – Honour those who have died, from close relatives to long-gone war heroes to household pets, to show that those who die are not forgotten and stay with us in real ways.
    – Distract, distract, distract. Provide comforts not related to death, like hugs and hot chocolate, and activities and structure to get life started again. It won’t take the problems away, but it will give the kids a chance to work through the issues in their own time without getting too emotionally involved.

    The fact of death is a bitter pill for everyone to swallow, and some are younger than others when it first touches their lives. Religion does not make it easier in the long run, it simply allows an amount of temporary denial. It’s not easy for anyone.

    Respecting beliefs?

    Morrey asks: My friends say that when I challenge them about their religion that I am disrespecting their beliefs. Yet they tell me all of the time that my beliefs are wrong. Why do they do this?

    Jake answers: Great question Morrey. Lets take a look at what I think theists are really saying when they ask that we as atheists respect their beliefs? How do you respect a belief? What is respect?

    There are many definitions for the word ” respect “.

    1. a particular, detail, or point (usually preceded by in ): to differ in some respect.
    2. relation or reference: inquiries with respect to a route.
    3. esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.
    4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect’s right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.
    5. the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect.
    6. respects, a formal expression or gesture of greeting, esteem, or friendship:Give my respects to your parents.
    7. favor or partiality.
    8. Archaic. a consideration
    9. to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
    10. to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone’s rights.
    11. to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person’s privacy.
    12. to relate or have reference to.
    So when a believer says that they want you to respect their beliefs, which definition are they referring to ? Take a look again at the list. Notice 10 and 11?
    10. to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone’s rights.
    11. to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person’s privacy.

    I think this is what believers are referring to. They want you to show regard and have consideration for their beliefs and to refrain from intruding or interfering with their beliefs. In other words, treat their beliefs as if they were your own and don’t try to change their minds. Seems simple enough right?

    However….

    When a theists tells you that you are a sinner, are they respecting your beliefs?
    When a theist tells you that you are going to hell, are they respecting your beliefs?
    When a theist tells you that homosexuals shouldn’t have the same rights as heterosexuals, are they respecting the beliefs of homosexuals?
    When a theist votes to take a womans right to control her reproduction, are they respecting the beliefs of women?
    When a theist demands that their scriptures be taught in public school, are they respecting other religions or those with no religion?
    When a theist demands that the laws of the country follow their religious teachings, are they respecting those who aren’t a part of their faith?

    So, why is it that believers ( not all mind you, but in my experience most ) demand respect of their beliefs, but don’t give the same respect to others? The answer is in the 4th definition of respect.

    4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect’s right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.

    In the mind of the theist, they have a truth that you and I don’t have and that truth sets them above everyone else. They are privileged. They are blessed. They are the chosen of god. They are his will on earth. To the theist, they aren’t judging you, they are simply correcting you and showing you the right way. Sometimes they will say, ” If I saw that you were about to get hit by a bus, wouldn’t you want me to tell you to get out of the way? “. It’s an act of kindness. It’s an act of love.

    The same doesn’t apply to you and I though. You see, we are the fallen. We are the sinners. We are what’s wrong with this world. If only we all had the truth of their god, then the world would be able to live in peace. This is how many theists see the world around them. This is why you need to respect their beliefs, but they don’t really have to respect yours. It’s because you are wrong, and they are right.

    There’s more to it than that though. You’re also not supposed to take this privilege away from them. You’re not supposed to get them to question their beliefs. You’re not supposed to show them the errors or contradictions in their belief. If you do, you are a servant of evil. You are testing their faith. You are trying to trick them. I’ve seen some theists ( not all mind you ) who believe that even trying to study and understand their faith would only lead to doubt. So they sit happily ignorant of what they believe in order to be safe.

    So what does it mean to respect a belief then? If a belief is being challenged, is it being respected? Should beliefs just be left alone? Consider the equal rights movement of the 60’s. What would have things been like if people like Martin Luther King didn’t challenge the beliefs of the establishment? Did he disrespect the beliefs of those who saw him as inferior? In my eyes, all beliefs should be challenged. If belief is defined as the confidence to the truth of something, how can one truly have confidence without comparing and contrasting their belief, even going as far as to falsify it? In this sense leaving a belief alone would be disrespectful. I want all of my beliefs challenged. Especially the ones that I have the most confidence in. For years as a believer I thought that I had all of the answers because I had never really challenged them. It wasn’t until I challenged them, that I began to understand how ignorant I was and how much my unfounded beliefs clouded the world around me. How much it damaged me. It took me a few years, but at the end, I’m glad that I found the courage to take a lifetime’s worth of belief, and give it the respect that it deserved.

    What does everyone else think? How do you show respect for a belief? Answer in the comments section below.

    The Unproveable Absence of God

    Question from MiK’la:
    Atheists always ask the Christian to prove that God exists. What proof is there that He doesn’t exist?

    Answer by SmartLX:
    None, but that doesn’t change anything.

    Most atheists, myself included, allow for the possibility of a god existing. We think it’s unlikely, but there are so many ways in which a god could exist and yet remain unproven that there’s no way to prove beyond all possible doubt that there are no gods. That in no way means there’s enough evidence to justify positively believing that there is one, let alone a particular one. It’s impossible to prove that George Burns wasn’t the actual composer of Eleanor Rigby – he was around at the time, after all, and might have written Paul McCartney a long letter – but no one believes he did it. (That analogy was originally going to be that no one believes Queen Elizabeth I wrote Shakespeare’s plays, but it turns out some people do.)

    Christians do believe in God, and therefore think there is at least one good reason to believe in God. When atheists go asking, we’re asking what that reason is. It’s an important question, because if it’s really a good reason to believe then we should believe too, and if it’s not a good reason then the believer shouldn’t. This is all based on the simple assumption that one should only believe in something with good reason. You’re welcome to argue with that if you really want to.

    Right, Wrong, and God

    Question from Adam:
    Without God, is there right and wrong?

    Answer by SmartLX:
    Even with a hypothetical god around, would there be there right and wrong?

    If God decides what is right and wrong, they are His opinions only, and subject to change. And change they apparently have, because there are all sorts of holy rules in the old Mosaic Law that had been superceded or forgotten as early as the first century AD (or CE). Shellfish, mixed fabrics, working on Sundays, that sort of thing. Therefore God’s sense of right and wrong is arbitrary, and useless to us except in the sense of trying to keep up with the whims of a tyrant to save our necks. That’s if we think He’s there at all.

    Without a God imbuing the entire universe with an ethereal sense of right and wrong, there is only what we humans decide, as no other animal has ever set down a code of ethics or morality. (Some groups of apes and monkeys have developed simple moral systems, but purely in practical terms rather than the abstract.) The consensual ethics agreed upon by large groups of people are far less arbitrary than the will of an all-powerful, invincible being, because the way we want to be treated – and therefore the way we treat people – has a comprehensible effect on our wellbeing. For example, a general aversion to killing (except in some extraordinary cases) potentially prolongs everyone’s lives.

    So we say that certain things are right and others are wrong, and if these judgements eventually show themselves to be flawed we change them. Regulated slavery was right and good for a very long time, but now we find it reprehensible. We’re entitled to admit mistakes and change our positions when new information comes to light, because we’re only human and we’re doing the best we can. A god has no such excuse; if He ever had to correct himself, He’s not much of a god.

    How do you deal with doubt ?

    Adam asks:
    Since you became an atheist, have you ever doubted atheism? Yes, that’s a funny combination of words.
    Do you still keep it in your head that there may (with a reasonable probability) actually be a god out there, we just don’t know yet? Or has that thought ever crept in? If so, please share your thoughts, and how you moved past them to be in the state you are now.

    Jake answers:
    The simple answer is, I’m not sure of anything. I always leave room for the possibility that I may be wrong. Sometimes, I have experiences from which my old theist way of thinking kicks in and I ask myself ” Is that god? ” Then I realize what’s happening and I ask myself, ” Why would that be god? ” and I come back to my senses.

    I think everyone needs a healthy dose of skepticism. I try to always look at things as objectively as I can. Obviously I don’t always succeed ( who does? ) though I try anyway. This is why I’m an atheist/agnostic. It’s the agnostic side that keeps me in check, even about my atheism. Since agnosticism deals with knowledge, it reminds me that I don’t ” know ” unless I have evidence, and even then, I could still be wrong. Some things of course I don’t need to doubt. Like Santa Claus, or Jesus. There’s enough contradictions in the stories, along with enough evidence to show how the stories were created to know that Santa and Jesus can’t be real. So it’s not hard to discard them. However, there could be a god out there that I’ve never considered, so I leave room for the possibility, despite the low probability.

    The point is, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. Keep searching, but remain skeptical.

    Let’s throw the question out to the comments, as atheists, what do you do with doubt ?

    Religion vs. Philosophy: Asatru worship ?

    Ryan asks:
    Hello, I am a 15 year old and I am a strong believer in a faith called Asatru. Asatru is the pre-christian religion of the Germans and Norse, so yes, Thor, Odin, Njord, Freyr, Freya. I believe their names and anthropomorphism is only used in place to understand the forces they control, like Thor = Thunder etc. As an atheist, would you say its wrong to believe in something irrational like this, but at the same time I don’t impose my beliefs on others nor do I really think my religion is universally applicable to everyone, because honestly, do we know whats out there? Btw, Asatru, is generally more ethically focussed (Google 9 Noble Virtues for more info) and the faith has a large population of atheists who use it as an ethical base.

    Jakes answer:
    Hi Ryan. I think what we need to do here is distinguish the difference between a religion and a personal philosophy. For example, I may be an atheist, but I am also philosophically a buddhist. I try to practice the 4 noble truths and to be mindful. Since buddhism doesn’t concern itself with gods or the afterlife it’s not in conflict with my atheism. The same can be said for those who follow the 9 noble virtues. Religion is generally defined as a system of worship ( the politics of mythology if you will ). Asatru in my understanding is more of a personal philosophy which anthropomorphises the elements and attributes of man as a way of understanding the world around us. ( please correct me if I am wrong ) In my eyes this is completely different from those who believe in a personal god, and believe that said god dictates to them how they should live their lives. Asatru, like buddhism asks you to discover for yourself by looking inwards and understanding your impact on the world. The abrahamic religions demand worship and obedience and tell you that your impact on the world isn’t as important as personal salvation in the afterlife. These are two different mindsets and are incompatible. From what I understand Asatru is even against proselytizing.

    So I understand why atheists turn to Asatru. I have several friends who practice it. I get it. I don’t see a problem with it.

    Age of non belief, christian friends, and family religion.

    Jasmine asks:
    At what age did you decide that you believe there was no God? When people try to convert you, what feelings do you encounter? Do you have any Christian friends, or have you completely removed yourself from anyone with any label near to that? Were you born into a Christian family, or were you born into an Atheist family and are just believing what your folks told you? How do you argue that atheism makes more sense than Christianity?

    Jakes answer:
    These are questions that I often get from people who are trying to understand why I am no longer a christian. I hope that I can answer your questions satisfactorily. Let’s take them one by one.

    At what age did you decide that you believe there was no God? I lost my faith around 23. Technically, I don’t believe there is no god. I lack belief that there is a god. Now I know this might sound like the same thing at first, but it really isn’t. Let me explain it like this, let’s say that I have no active belief in a god. I am at 0 beliefs in a god or gods. You come and tell me about your god. If I accept this belief then I am at +1 beliefs in a god. If I do not accept your belief then I have not gained anything and remain at 0 beliefs in a god. For me, this was a 23 year process. So now, I am at 0 beliefs in a god. Now on the other hand, I do believe that the evidence people give for their gods are false. Since the only valid evidence for claims of existence must be objective and verifiable, and since no believer has ever produced such evidence, I believe that their evidence is invalid. Do you see the difference?
    When people try to convert you, what feelings do you encounter? That depends on what I’m being told. My feelings can range anywhere from pity, to humor, to indignation. I pity those who believe without understanding what it is that they believe. I find it humorous when people present evidence that they wouldn’t accept themselves if the word “God” wasn’t attached to it. I feel indignation when a believer tells me that I am evil for not believing.
    Do you have any Christian friends, or have you completely removed yourself from anyone with any label near to that? I have a few christian friends. I had more but people find it difficult to remain believers around me. I’ve deconverted most of my family and friends. I didn’t have to preach to them or anything like that, I just answer their questions much like I’m doing now with you. Eventually, they see the truth for themselves.
    Were you born into a Christian family, or were you born into an Atheist family and are just believing what your folks told you? I was born into the LDS faith. My family were all LDS as well. I served a 2 year mission at 19 in the Dakotas and sat as a counselor in the bishopric after. I was a very strong believer. It wasn’t until I was 23 that I met a buddhist monk who taught me about objective thinking and began my journey into non belief. It took me about 2 years before I lost my belief in a god.
    How do you argue that atheism makes more sense than Christianity? The same way a person argues that not believing in Santa Claus makes more sense than believing in Santa Claus. When you grow up, you realize that the story of Santa Claus has no evidence and includes impossible things. The same thing happened with me and the idea of god. I studied it, found it lacking, and stopped believing.

    Well I hope that answers you’re questions. If not, feel free to ask for follow ups in the comment section below.

    Answer by SmartLX:
    Oo, oo, I want in on this one.

    At what age did you decide that you believe there was no God?
    Jake’s already nitpicked the specifics of the question, so…I honestly don’t know. There was about a 15 year gap from age 11-12 onwards when I barely thought about it, but when I did think about it at age 26 I realised I no longer believed. My faith had faded completely in the intervening years, so I had a drama-free deconversion.

    When people try to convert you, what feelings do you encounter?
    – Nostalgia, because people talked to me like that all the time in Catholic primary school.
    – Deja vu, because whatever arguments or appeals they use I’ve probably already received them on this site at some point.
    – Engaged, because if I do get something new to think about it’s great fodder for the site, or at least my own research.
    If I get angry or upset in a situation like this, it’s not simply because I’m being proselytised but because the “witness” is going about it in an emotionally confronting or manipulative way. It still doesn’t work, but it puts a damper on my day.

    Do you have any Christian friends, or have you completely removed yourself from anyone with any label near to that?
    My wife’s Christian. About half of my family still is, and half of hers, and of course many of our friends. Australia’s far less religious than America, but that’s not saying much. We all get on, and there are plenty of non-adversarial discussions on the subject. I don’t go sword in hand 24/7.

    Were you born into a Christian family, or were you born into an Atheist family and are just believing what your folks told you?
    Catholic mother, atheist father, raised Catholic and believed what I was told until I found out Dad is an atheist (he only ever said so about twice) and therefore not everyone believes what I did. I think that started me on the road to disbelief, or at least skepticism.

    How do you argue that atheism makes more sense than Christianity?
    By essay, usually. My best attempt to do this directly is right here.

    Macro vs. Micro, bird and the egg, and deceitful theists.

    Todays Question comes from Charles who asks…
    “My question is in reference to the theory of macro-evolution.

    I’ll start by saying that I was an atheist for around 5 years of my life but am now a Christian. I fully believe in micro-evolution as it is evident and has been proven Macro- evolution however has gaping holes in it that need answers.

    Let’s discuss the first bird. We can all agree birds are hatched from eggs but what came first, the egg or the bird? Also did the first bird breathe? Did it breathe before it evolved lungs? How did it do this? Why did it evolve lungs if it were happily surviving without them? How did it know what needed to be evolved if it’s brain hadn’t evolved yet? Did the bird have a mouth? How did it eat before it had evolved a mouth? Where did the mouth send food before a stomach evolved? How did the bird see what there was to eat before it’s eyes evolved?

    I’ll end with a quote from Prof Louis Bounoure, Dir of Research, National Center of Scientific Research: “Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.” ”

    Answer by Jake:
    Charles, if I thought evolution was what you think it is, I wouldn’t believe in it either. Fortunately, I know what evolution is. Let’s see if I can’t course correct your lost ship and help you navigate the sea of facts.

    First, micro evolution. There’s no such thing. Evolution is evolution. It’s like saying “recycling”. You can recycle a big thing like a car, or you can recycle a little thing like a can. Either way, both have to go through the process of recycling. Both are stripped down, melted or shredded and then formed into something new. There’s no micro recycling nor is there macro recycling. The same thing applies to evolution. Both little things and big things go through the process of evolution. The only difference, just like in recycling, is the amount of time it takes to evolve. Big things take longer, little things go faster. To claim that they are two separate things, you would have to show the process that separates the two. You can’t, because there is none.

    Next, your “which came first” question. The answer is simple, the egg came first. When the bird became what we know today as a bird, it was maybe 1% different from it’s parent. Evolution happens gradually. In increments. It doesn’t happen all at once. A bird doesn’t decide it needs wings and then just grows wings. It doesn’t decided it needs lungs and then grows lungs ( like your examples above. ) That’s not how evolution works and is why I said in the beginning that if I thought it was what you think it is that I wouldn’t believe in it either. I’ll give you a reference at the end of this reply so that you can learn what evolution is for yourself.

    Lastly, your quote. It’s wrong. What you’ve probably done is read a christian website that misquoted the professor in order to try and justify their beliefs. It’s a dishonest tactic and if you had simply done a google search to check the quote, you would have learned of it’s dishonesty for yourself. Here is the explanation for the quote and where it came from. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part12.html

    While you’re at that website, check out the rest of it. Talkorigins.org is a great place to learn not only about evolution is, but what it isn’t as well. I would start here http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html and read over their FAQ section. You may be surprised at how much misinformation you’ve been fed by your fellow believers. Once you realize this try asking yourself why they mislead you to begin with?

    One last thing. Keep in mind that evolution neither proves nor disproves gods. There are many people who still believe in a god and accept evolution. They see their god as the one who set evolution in motion. Although I don’t accept their conclusion that a god exists, I still appreciate that they at least recognize the overwhelming evidence for evolution and don’t try to twist it in order to suit their agenda.

    Atheists have no morals ?

    Question from Adam (Trimmed to get to the meat.)
    “Have you encountered situations where a religious person could not believe atheists had morals? I tried to explain to him how morals are built from emotion, and as a mechanism to survive as social creatures. He didn’t even respond, and reiterated that, “all I did was state the fact that atheists have no morals”. I didn’t get emotional or bothered in the conversation, because I don’t particularly care if this random guy on the internet is a closed minded prick. But the fact that many religious people do share that belief is a bit disheartening.

    How would you go about convincing a person that atheists have morals when they have been taught the contrary? Is it possible to convince a Christian that morality doesn’t originate from the bible or from this “god” of theirs?”

    Answer by Jake
    First Adam, sorry for cutting some of your email out, but I wanted to get directly to this great question and save a little space at the same time, so bare with me.
    The simplest answer is that some people don’t want to understand. They don’t want to listen to ideas or new thoughts that might go against their beliefs. No amount of debate or discussion is going to change these peoples minds. If someone isn’t willing to listen, there’s no way for them to learn.

    However for the sake of this discussion lets assume that the person you are talking to isn’t that closed minded. How do you get through to them? Well again, the simplest answer is that you just give them the facts. What if though, they don’t want to hear about social empathy, or the social contract? I’ve found that a great way to get someone to start thinking about another perspective is to get them to discredit their own perspective first. Each religion is different, but they all for the most part have conflicting beliefs. For example in my view, Xians have no morals because they can be forgiven so arbitrarily that the morals that they have accpeted may as well not even exist. The following is an example I’ve used many times….

    Imagine there’s a hockey game and a player sticks another player who doesn’t even have the puck. In this situation the player may be put into the penalty box until it’s time for him to come out again. Now imagine for a moment if the player had the opportunity to remove himself from the penalty box at any time he wished and all he had to do was tell the referee that he was sorry? How long would that player stay in the box? What would be the point of having the penalty to begin with?

    This question is great because it asks the theist to compare and contrast their own morals. It won’t convince them that atheist have morals, but what it will do is force them to consider their own morality. If their morality is self nullifying then why do they use morals at all? It’s these kind of questions that if we can get people to ask themselves may lead to a deeper understanding. It doesn’t always work, but I’ve found more often then not it puts the theist on the defensive and demands that they prove or at least rationalize their morality.