{"id":3767,"date":"2018-08-11T06:01:45","date_gmt":"2018-08-11T13:01:45","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/?p=3767"},"modified":"2018-08-11T06:01:45","modified_gmt":"2018-08-11T13:01:45","slug":"alex-tsakiris-on-ndes-and-the-impotence-of-debate","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/?p=3767","title":{"rendered":"Alex Tsakiris on NDEs, and the Impotence of Debate"},"content":{"rendered":"

Question from Uriadka:<\/strong>
\nDoes Alex Tsakiris prove NDEs?
\n
\nHe often uses a variety of NDE researchers and says that all these skeptics and atheists including Sam Harris, Christof Koch, have gone from skeptics to somewhat switching sides in the NDE debate.
\n
\nHere is a link where he debates Mike Shermer.
\n
\nhttp:\/\/skeptiko.com\/dr-michael-shermer-on-near-death-experience-science-379\/<\/a>
\n
\nHe brings up some decent points in all of his debates, about how some studies seem to disprove certain scientific explanations for NDEs, and then he sites doctors and people with high credentials as proof of NDEs being soul related. He just seems to always beat skeptics when they debate. If you have an opportunity, look up some of his NDE debates, and he always seems more well versed, and it gets me to question whether or not skeptics always present things out of context.
\n
\nHere is an example of a quote by Dr. Long:
\n
\n“Dr. Jeffrey Long: The key thing is to know a few of the consistently seen elements of near-death experience that are the strongest evidence for their reality. For example, when you\u2019re under general anesthesia, it should be impossible to have a lucidic organized remembrance at that time. In fact, under anesthesia, you\u2019re typically so far under, with general anesthesia they often have to breathe for you. I mean you\u2019re literally, brain shut down to the level of the brain stem and at that point in time some people have a cardiac arrest, their hearts stop, and of course, that\u2019s very well documented. They monitor people very carefully that are having general anesthesia.
\n
\nSo, I have dozens and dozens of near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia and at this time, it should be, if you will, doubly impossible to have a conscious remembrance, and yet they do have near-death experiences at this time, and they\u2019re typical near-death experiences. They have the same elements and appear to have them in the same orders as near-death experiences occurring under all other circumstances. In fact, a critical survey question I asked was what their level of consciousness and alertness during the experience was.
\n
\nWell, even under general anesthetics, under those powerful chemicals to produce sedation, if they had a near-death experience under general anesthesia, their level of consciousness and alertness was identical to near-death experiences occurring under all other circumstances.
\n
\nThere\u2019s absolutely no way the skeptics can explain that away, it\u2019s impossible.”
\n
\nOn his shows he has Brain surgeons saying there is no way some brain in that state could create an experience feeling so much more vivid and lucid than real life. It kills me how many atheists have converted due to him:
\n
\nHe engages with Shermer (a skeptic)
\n
\n: On that last part, I don\u2019t know that that\u2019s really the direction where things are going. The last time we talked to you a couple of years ago, one of the guys you brought up on your team was Dr. Christof Koch, right? A guy I\u2019ve spoken to, interviewed on this show. Hey man, he\u2019s moved over. He switched gears, right?
\n
\nMichael Shermer: Sort of moved over.
\n
\nAlex Tsakiris: Okay, sort of moved over. The position has shifted. These guys are no longer holding to the mind equals brain thing.
\n
\nAnother clip I was going to play for you, but I\u2019ve played enough clips, you were very nice to do it.
\n
\nMichael Shermer: Even Deepak says you need a brain.
\n
\nAlex Tsakiris: Well, hold on. I could play for you the clip of Sam Harris and David Chalmers. So, Sam Harris, I don\u2019t think much of Sam Harris, but he\u2019s a name everybody knows. David Chalmers, one of the leading researchers in consciousness for a number of years, and they\u2019re there talking, and they say, \u201cDan Dennett, consciousness is an illusion. You don\u2019t really think he believes that, do you? I mean, we\u2019re not still stuck there, right?\u201d
\n
\nSo, this idea that you\u2019re putting forward, this kind of militant, materialism, mind equals brain, we\u2019ve moved past that. All the leading players have moved past that Michael.
\n
\nMichael Shermer: No, they haven\u2019t. No, no.
\n
\nAlex Tsakiris: Well, Christof Koch has moved past it. David Chalmers has moved past it. Sam Harris has moved past it. Who are you going to point to?
\n
\nMichael Shermer: I know Sam quite well, he hasn\u2019t moved past anything, what are you talking about?
\n
\nAlex Tsakiris: He\u2019s not a strict materialist. He\u2019s not a strict mind equals brain guy, no. He\u2019s totally in the panpsychism, spirituality, something other than strict mind equals brain materialism.
\n
\nMichael Shermer: We did a public event together in Austin that he\u2019s going to post in a week or two that you can listen to, where we talk about\u2026
\n
\nAlex Tsakiris: Ask him, bring him on, I\u2019ll have both of you guys on at the same time and I\u2019ll invite the people to talk to you.<\/p>\n

What are your thoughts on this? Does it make sense from the brilliant Alex T that souls and NDEs are real?
\n
\nAnswer by SmartLX<\/a>:<\/strong>
\nIt’s my opinion that before too long there will be an article on this site regarding every prominent NDE advocate, simply because the people sending in the questions appear to be literally working their way down a list. I should go back and check whether they’re coming in alphabetical order.
\n
\nAs far as I can find, Sam Harris and Christof Koch have not said or written a word in support of genuine NDEs, and Sam Harris in particular has certainly not moved an inch on the existence of souls, which is what Shermer is trying to say above despite the interruptions. (Don’t accept that? Comment and post something to the contrary by Harris himself. He’s written about spirituality, sure, but expressly to reclaim the word from supernaturalists, so read carefully.)
\n
\nWhat seems to be happening is that at certain times in the supposedly ongoing debate, when people like Tsakiris have made a point which they don’t consider their opponents to have answered, NDE supporters write stuff like this<\/a> to say Harris et al are beaten and will shortly have to concede. This is invited by Tsakiris himself who asserts as above that his opponents are coming around to his side while they’re not present. This is not the same as extracting any kind of actual concession, but it’s good enough to reassure a lot of believers.
\n
\nI’ve written before on the attempts to debunk various scientific explanations of classic NDE phenomena, and here<\/a> for instance I’ve addressed the undisputed fact that dreams do not occur during periods of very low brain activity, such as anaesthesia, cerebral hypoxia\/anoxia, or just plain deep sleep. In order to reach these states from a starting state of consciousness, one must descend through intermediate levels of brain activity during which dreams are<\/em> possible. In order to wake up to tell the tale, one must then ascend through the same levels, often more slowly. That’s two intervals either side of the “dead zone” that allow for the unconscious experiences people report afterwards. To summarise, there is always time to dream.
\n
\nWinning a debate is not the same as winning an argument, which is not the same as winning someone over. I think of it in stages.
\nStage 1:<\/strong> You win a debate if you appear to be ahead on points, literal or figurative, at the end of an exchange of predetermined length. No one’s mind is required to change.
\nStage 2:<\/strong> You win an argument if your opponent cannot respond to your points, given ample time to research and consider, despite actually trying to do so. Still, though your opponent is no longer on solid ground they may cling to their position in the belief that it will eventually be vindicated.
\nStage 3:<\/strong> You win someone over if they change their mind and adopt your position.
\n
\nThe religious appear to be good at debates, largely because those who participate in them are trained<\/em> to be good at them, but this merely allows them to subjectively win the occasional debate even with bad logic and poor (or zero) evidence. Subsequent analysis of what they actually offered reveals how little they were working with, and thus a debate will hardly ever advance a religious viewpoint past stage 1 for anyone who does not already believe.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Question from Uriadka: Does Alex Tsakiris prove NDEs? He often uses a variety of NDE researchers and says that all these skeptics and atheists including Sam Harris, Christof Koch, have gone from skeptics to somewhat switching sides in the NDE debate. Here is a link where he debates Mike Shermer. http:\/\/skeptiko.com\/dr-michael-shermer-on-near-death-experience-science-379\/ He brings up some … Continue reading “Alex Tsakiris on NDEs, and the Impotence of Debate”<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[560,561,6],"tags":[806,308,690],"class_list":["post-3767","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-faith-2","category-science-2","category-text","tag-alex-tsakiris","tag-nde","tag-near-death-experience"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/pB6tr-YL","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3767","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=3767"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3767\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3770,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3767\/revisions\/3770"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=3767"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=3767"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/asktheatheist.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=3767"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}