Question from Alex:
Once you believed in religion. Then you understood that they are telling you fairytales. You became a so-called atheist. When you look back now, you say: How stupid was I! Can’t you imagine that one day you will look back at your actual state – and say the same?
Answer by SmartLX:
I wasn’t stupid to believe, and neither does anyone else deserve to be called stupid solely for having religious faith, because you don’t have to be stupid to be wrong.
In my case I was raised a Catholic, lived in a majority Christian environment and never really had any reason to question the core beliefs. Once I did eventually start to question them, they didn’t last long. In the absence of external evidence one way or the other, careful examination of one’s own beliefs can cause them to change – and for some they may be strengthened instead.
I can imagine myself believing in a god in the future. Maybe I’ll have some traumatic experience and rationalise it in religious terms while still badly affected, possibly thinking my sanity and my will to live are contingent on the existence of a god. Maybe I’ll have a religious experience under the influence of a drug, a medical condition or sleep paralysis, and think I’ve seen Jesus. Maybe I’ll fall in with a crowd of Christians and talk so much theology with them that I forget I’m taking God’s existence as read for discussion’s sake. Or maybe God will change my heart directly, like He’s supposed to.
There are tons of reasons why I might change my mind later, but hardly any of them need me to be wrong right now. The undeniable possibility that I will one day believe in God again does not make God any more likely to be real. It just means that it’s difficult to stay entirely rational for one’s whole life, even about important things like this.
Tag: atheism
What’s in a name? Or a closet?
Question from Jim:
Thanks for the work and effort that goes into your podcast, I enjoy it immensely. I’ve found that using the term “coming out” as an atheist, always requires a lot of explanation. But that’s alright, because it opens up the conversation, to other issues. Such as the issuance of titles. Namely why we have to use a title. Would titles be necessary if it weren’t for the title “Christian”? Did this title not open up this Pandoras Box? Or maybe even the title “religious”?
Answer by SmartLX:
I don’t think the term “atheist” would be needed if there weren’t a large number of people with opposing viewpoints.
The term “abolitionist” was relevant in the United States only until slavery was successfully abolished. Nowadays it’s assumed that (nearly) everyone there is opposed to slavery and would work against it if it returned, so everyone’s an abolitionist and there’s no point using the word to refer to individuals.
Likewise, “atheist” is a term for someone who rejects a popular position, namely theism. If religious belief declined until it were as rare as, say, political anarchism, there’d be no more reason to call someone an atheist than there’s reason to call someone a non-anarchist. It would already be assumed, and instead the theists would need to speak up.
As for “coming out”, its meaning for gay people is common knowledge, so it shouldn’t be too hard to transfer it to other revelations of people’s private nature. Atheists in certain places have just as much reason to be “in the closet” as gays, so it’s just as meaningful when they “come out”.
By the way, we don’t do a podcast, so the one you enjoy is by someone else. Jake did a few short videos some years ago, but that was it.
Arrogant Atheists Anonymous
Question from Aaron:
Hey guys,
I’ve been pretty solidly atheist for about two years now, and one attribute of religious perspectives that irks me is the arrogance they exude. Such arrogance is often entirely unintentional, but to proclaim knowledge about something that is entirely unprovable does require at least some arrogance on a believer’s part. One of my favorite aspects of atheism and skepticism is the admission that most things, even seemingly solid scientific fact, cannot (and should not, in my opinion) be stated as 100% certain.
Unfortunately, this arrogance that I myself formerly had as a devout religious person is difficult to get away from. I live in a particularly religious region of the US, and I often find myself feeling somehow superior to, or wiser than, the religious people around me because they believe in something that makes no sense to me. I don’t voice such opinions, of course, and I try constantly to remind myself that there is always the possibility that my convictions could be flawed or wrong, but it can be very difficult NOT to feel this way, particularly when the religious perspectives fly directly in the face of science or logic (which feels like most of the time).
Any ideas for reigning in arrogance and keeping myself grounded?
Answer by SmartLX:
Here’s a mantra for you: Being right doesn’t mean you’re smart, and being wrong doesn’t mean they’re dumb. Whatever wacky fundamentalist beliefs you may come across in your area, there are bona fide geniuses and high-level academics (not necessarily the same thing) who believe exactly the same things and work to defend them in the public square. There are also some real boneheads who are in complete agreement with you on this particular topic.
The reverse is also true, of course; there really are intelligent atheists and proudly ignorant and uneducated believers. A large majority of studies even suggest an inverse correlation between intelligence and religiosity. However, you cannot reliably apply a population-wide correlation to individuals. Any given believer could be one of the smart ones.
So, how can smart people get something like this completely wrong, and not see why? It can have a lot to do with the foundations of their reasoning. An argument or line of reasoning can be valid and sound given its premises, but actually completely wrong if one or more of the premises is false. You’ll find that for many believers, the existence of God is itself a premise rather than a conclusion. (I therefore suspect that many arguments for God are originally formulated backwards, e.g. “God made life, so…1. life exists, therefore 2. God exists.“) It’s a premise because it’s drummed into believers from early childhood, or particularly intense “religious experiences” have made them emotionally invested in the idea, or in a few cases they’re getting paid to advance a particular view.
It’s not like this for everyone though. People may have correct, reasonable premises and still reach the wrong conclusion through flawed reasoning. There are a huge number of logical fallacies that are easy to apply (indeed, difficult not to apply) and will not be obvious or even visible to many.
There’s also the possibility of cognitive dissonance. If a particular conclusion is desired, then even if one avoids making an appeal to consequences (see the list of fallacies), one will subconsciously be more accepting of poor logic that reaches that conclusion. Two real world examples:
1. Software pirates: “Those who take goods without paying are thieves. I take software without paying. Therefore, I…am NOT a thief because software isn’t real goods, and everybody does it, and information should be free, and…”
2. Prison rapists: “A man who has sex with men is homosexual. I’m having sex with this man. Therefore I…am NOT homosexual, because this man is now a woman. I’ve made him my bitch.”
I’ll leave you to imagine how religion can inspire this kind of mental swerving to avoid the unthinkable.
There are any number of ways to get something important completely wrong, and many have nothing to do with intelligence or the other innate qualities of individuals. You’re entitled to be confident (not certain) that you’re right, but if you’re right it implies only one thing about those who disagree with you: not that they’re stupid, or ignorant, or mad, or lying, but that they are wrong. If you think it’s worth correcting them, go for it, but there is no good reason to be judgemental purely on this basis.
Cloudy With A 15% Chance of God
Question from Anonymous:
To whoever receives this message,
I was raised from birth as a Muslim, but as I began to study science, the stories that are told- such as Noah’s ark, Jesus, Moses etc.- seemed, well, improbable. I’m on the verge of becoming an atheist but there’s a couple of questions which I can’t seem to answer using scientific thought, I am after all only a second year university student. I feel as if I can’t just quit my religion without being at least 98% certain that there is most likely no God (I understand God can’t be entirely disproven, much in the same case the flying spaghetti monster can’t be either š ). I’m hoping you’re able to.
The first is:
1. How could the universe begin if there was no creator that has been around since the beginning of time?
– Because if you can deny the creator, you can’t deny that at the very least energy would have had to have been around and had to have existed since the beginning of everything, and in this case:
Would energy be God? Can energy be God? Does this mean energy cares about what human beings do?
2. Life ceases to make sense, there is no drive, does this mean there is no point in life ultimately?
-I understand from an evolutionary perspective it is imperative we believe there is a reason to live. Humans are very reliant on being self centered and believing that everything must be about them. But I don’t like the idea of everything- this temporary struggle- to be about nothing.
3. Can you explain in terms of evolution how a new sexually producing species can be formed- in the sense that once the mutation occurs to cause a change in the species inside of a member of a population, how a male and a female version of the same different ‘evolved’ species (that has become reproductively isolated) is able to ‘come about’ at the same time in order to allow a continuation of this new, evolved species?
^ If I’ve explained that right, this is really dependent on chance and perhaps increases the likelihood of a God-like influence on the construction of a new species.
At the moment I’m at a 60-85% sure point that God doesn’t exist– it varies depending on the day, as I’m sure you would understand if you have been brought up on another faith, it is rather hard to get rid of that part of you which stubbornly doesn’t want to change no matter what the facts are.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I truly appreciate it. Oh, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Answer by SmartLX:
I’ve never known anyone with such a specific threshold for the probability of the existence or non-existence of a god (other than those futilely seeking certainty). Perhaps we should all be as demanding of reality, and employ this brand of aggressive curiosity.
Anyway, let’s see if we can help you out.
1. It’s possible that the universe has always been around in some form, just as the creator god is assumed to have been. Indeed, it’s the simplest inference from the commonly understood law of conservation, which states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. According to that, matter exists now, therefore it always has, and the Big Bang was just one event in an ongoing timeline. No creator is necessary in this case. As for the matter/energy which may always have existed, we have no reason to suppose that it’s anything like a god itself – that it answers prayers, or cares about humans at all.
On the other hand, it’s also possible that the universe really did emerge from nothing, because quantum physics strongly infer that what we think of as “nothing” is highly unstable and generates new particles all the time. If you want to research this scenario, read A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. (If you instead interpret this to mean that the “nothing” is really something, that changes little because it’s still an unintelligent object which renders a creator god unnecessary.)
2. You may not like the idea that we have no divinely bestowed purpose, but how does your personal taste for an idea (or anyone else’s) affect whether it’s true or false? The universe does not owe us comfort.
Evolution has endowed us with a strong survival instinct, yes, but it is not the only reason we have for existing. We give ourselves plenty of other reasons: science, art, the pursuit of happiness, the care of other creatures, each other and so on.
Any divine purpose which has ever been proposed appears to have actually been invented by humans anyway, so I think it’s better to be honest about it. Other theists maintain the vague belief that God has a purpose for them, but they’re not meant to know what it is. What’s the point of that, besides generating an unsupported sense of self-importance?
3. New species do not evolve as individuals, but as populations. The shared genome changes very, very slowly over hundreds or thousands of generations, and beneficial mutations spread across the group through new offspring. Both genders come along for the ride; gender is determined by a single chromosome, and the rest of the DNA is pretty much identical. Once the population has become different enough on average to qualify as a different species than it was before, there are plenty of new males and females around.
Happy new year to you too.
Atheist in America
Question from Ellen:
Hi!
Great site, I found it by coincidence. Are you guys from the US? I’d like to know how it is to live openly as an atheist in your country. If you’re outspoken about it, that is. What do people say? Does anyone exclude you ever? What did your family/friends say when you first told them? You get my point. I’m a big time atheist, but I’m from Sweden so it’s not really a big deal here. I’d just like to know!
Answer by Andrea (rewritten after she got more time to write):
Hi Ellen,
I admire your great country on its wide-spread secularism. Your society is much healthier than ours, which sociologists attribute to your lack of religion and our surplus of religion. (See studies by sociologist Phil Zuckerman for details.)
Anyway, from my experience being a large part of various atheist organizations, I can tell you that Iām not outspoken about it, and many people ask why I donāt believe in a god to which I usually respond, why do you? To me it just doesnāt make sense.
Regarding not being invited to events, most of my friends know Iām an atheist and that hasnāt made a difference with that regard.
I think most people in the US are afraid to admit to their atheism because there is so much superstition in this country and therefore bigotry against atheists. The radical religious right here hold a lot of power since they are politically allied with big corporations and although ānon-religiousā is the fastest growing group in the US, I think most of us are still afraid to proudly proclaim our atheism. I know I donāt make a big show of it since I work for the son of a minister as well as with many religious folks.
Things are looking up though. We recently formed a National Atheist Party and more and more people are ācoming out.ā
Thank you for your question. Be thankful for the rationalism in your country.
Sincerely,
Andrea
“I wanna be like you-woo-woo…”
Question from AJ:
Dear atheists,
I would like to be an atheist because it makes sense logically, but I have been raised to have blind faith in a few different belief systems — some mainstream and some non-mainstream.
I have been trying to let go of my beliefs, but I find I am holding onto even the most irrational parts of them.
Even if there is only a 2% or less chance of something being real, I seem to latch onto it anyway unless it has a 0% chance which never happens in science, so I am miserable.
My beliefs don’t make me happy anymore which is why I want to abandon them. But I realized there is something comforting about them that I hadn’t been aware of, and perhaps this is what is holding me back. So I am struggling between my believing and non-believing self.
What do I do with the part of myself who believes so readily the most ridiculous things? And how do I shift the way I find comfort – so that it’s not in supernatural things?
I don’t want to just shut off this part of me who wants comfort and has a big imagination, but I want to find new ways to incorporate it into my new non-belief system.
I have to admit, I’m a sensitive person so I need to find a way to do this gently because I feel like I’m losing something that was once special to me.
I do want to make the change, though, I just don’t know how.
Answer by Andrea:
Hello,
Itās nice that you want to embrace the scientific over the mystical, and I commend you for that. It takes courage to overcome the indoctrination many of us former Christians have had to undergo since our earliest memories.
Iāve been an atheist since high school and still have pesky supernatural thoughts. For example, my life is so good right now that I feel like things are too good to continue, and so chances are better that my plane will likely crash with my next trip.
Now thereās nothing rational in this belief, since itās safer to go by plane than by road (in the US, anyway), but Iāve been trained into these thought patterns my whole life by just watching and listening to my father.
What do I do about these thoughts? Just accept them and then let them go. Thought patterns have a tendency to entrench themselves in the brain. Its normal and natural and nothing to be afraid of or annoyed by.
Zen training has really helped me along in this manner. Zen is not a religion, itās a way of life, and it has taught me to appreciate the now and live a calmer more accepting life of myself and those around me. Itās a way of quieting your mind. I like to call myself a Zen atheist, though I am unfortunately pretty far away from any ideal of Zenhood.
Your heart is in a rational, right (in my opinion) place, and donāt force yourself to be anything, whether atheist or Buddhist or Christian or Pastafarian (Church of the Flying Spaghetti monster). Just do what feels right to you, your gut feelings, and try to find something you like to do — a purpose in your life.
Why I love being an atheist? Because I no longer have to wonder if there is a god, I am 99.999999 etc. sure that there isnāt. This frees my mind up for other questions and thoughts, since I love science and nature and am always trying to think up how to make things better. It is also more comforting, because I found it quite disturbing to believe in a supernatural being that has the power to end suffering yet lets the majority of the worldās people suffer anyway. Regarding working with other atheists, I love doing charity work with people who do good things not in the hopes of gaining entry into heaven or evading hell, but simply because it is the decent thing to do.
You mentioned that you find something comforting in religion. It might be community you need, and if so atheism is the fastest growing ideology in the world and there are atheist groups springing up in many countries. Iām not sure where you live, but check out this page:
http://presentsfortheplanet.org/linkspage.htm
It lists groups from all over the world.
I find it wonderful that you are a sensitive person and thereās no reason you need to lose anything. Atheism should make you feel you have gained. I am a firm believer in gut feelings, esp. after reading Malcolm Gladwellās book āBlink,ā and I think your gut feelings are steering you in the right direction. You donāt need to give up things just because they have religious overtones. I have Jesus Christ Superstar CDs for example, and I know the words of every song. Keep your rituals. Send xmas cards and give gifts, you can even call them solstice festivities if you want. Go to Church — what the hell!
Donāt push yourself, and your answer will come to you eventually. Enjoy life in the meantime.
And if things are going too good, be very careful. You never when things will come to a crashing halt.
Just kidding. Best to you and thank you so much for your intelligent question.
Andrea
And Now, The Gnus
Question from S.A. (initials, not the Australian state):
What’s the difference between “atheists” and “new atheists” and “gnu atheists?”
Everybody seems to know this but me!
Answer by SmartLX:
Not a whole lot.
A “new atheist” is an ordinary atheist by any definition of the word, so if anything “new atheists” are a subset of atheists. “Gnu atheists” means the same as “new atheists”; it was coined by a “new atheist” (might have been PZ Myers, Jerry Coyne or Ophelia Benson) to make fun of the original term.
The terms “New Atheist” and “New Atheism” were coined in 2006 (probably by Wired) to refer to the authors of popular books about atheism which had all come out around the same time, and the atheist movement they spearheaded. The most prominent “new atheists” are also referred to as the “Four Horsemen”: Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens (cheers, Hitch), Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris.
The perceived unique feature of “new atheists” is that apart from not believing in gods, they want to dispel the religious beliefs of others and challenge religion’s privileged position in society. There’s nothing new about that – Madalyn Murray O’Hair banished compulsory prayer from US public schools in 1963 – but it hadn’t been a prominent issue for some time. A more correct term for “New Atheism” would be atheist activism.
Of course there are worse adjectives than “new”. Since the modern movement hit the big time in 2006, religious respondents to atheist campaigns have done their utmost to permanently affix other words, and paint us all as “angry atheists”, “arrogant atheists”, “dogmatic atheists”, “fundamentalist atheists”, “radical atheists” or “militant atheists”. That last one, despite being coined jokingly by Dawkins, really irritates me, given that almost any other use of the word “militant” implies violence.
What is the purpose of atheism?
Question from Jai:
Given that theism has well documented goals and purported benefits. What do you see as the Purpose of opposing the premise on which these are based? This is aimed specifically at The Weak Atheist given that he allows for the possibility of in his view the lessor probable prevailing.
Answer by SmartLX:
Before I start, notice (here and in the other thread) how you capitalise “Atheist” and “Atheism” but not “theist” and “theism”? One is no more deserving than the other.
If the purported benefits of theism were all there was to consider, there’d be fewer reasons to oppose it. Religious faith has needlessly led many directly to misery and death, both through the actions of organised religions and through personal interpretations of the wishes of deities. Atheism has not done this; of course atheists have done horrible things too, but it has seldom if ever been their atheism which actually led them to it.
If there were good evidence that a particular god among the multitude of invented characters is in fact the real one, all the trouble caused on Earth by religious faith wouldn’t amount to much because there would clearly be a longer, better life after this one to prepare for. As it is, we have wildly contradicting instructions from different religions on how to prepare for the next life. Even if there is a real god, without indicative evidence the chances of it being a given believer’s own particular god are vanishingly small, and most if not all theists are worshipping false gods. Upon their death, they might well fare even worse than atheists if the real god is jealous. If there is any evidence out there, the best way to bring it into the open is to publicly advocate atheism. (The theist material unearthed so far has been lacklustre.)
There’s a personal reason for trying to advance atheism which you and I have already discussed, Jai: I am an atheist. I did not choose to be one, I realised I was one, and I have no wish to lie about it. That makes me a self-proclaimed atheist, and a visible member of a minority which in some places is hated, feared and disadvantaged due to misconceptions, stigma and of course society’s ingrained deference to religion. I haven’t suffered very badly myself, but many others have, do and will, and I want to help. Society as a whole I have no idea how to change, stigma will fade unassisted if not reinforced, but misconceptions I can confront directly, and hopefully dispel. Fortunately, inquisitive theists bring them straight to me at ATA.
Grandpa the Angry Atheist
Question from Nik:
Hi,
I am an Atheist born in to a Hindu family in India. A month back, I revealed my atheism to my grandfather who is a more open and aggressive atheist than I am.
He went on to accuse me of visiting holy places with my family members and said I should be ashamed of myself. I on the other hand argued why I should stop from having good time with my family just because I am an atheist. I do not see any reason to accuse any one for believing in god or distance myself from others just because I do not share the same view as them.
Do you think it is obligatory for an atheist to let everyone know what their belief is? I was never forced to take part in any activity I do not like. But if I ever happen to see any one do atheist-bashing I will definitely defend it.
Am I really wrong in keeping my atheism to myself? I agree, at times I am guilty of acting as I do believe in god just to avoid unnecessary confrontations, though.
P.S. My parents do know I am an atheist.
Answer by SmartLX:
You’re certainly not alone in keeping your atheism to yourself. There are a lot of atheists who haven’t told anyone at all, so just by letting your family know you’ve been more open than many.
In principle, atheists have more freedom to participate in the rituals of faiths we don’t share than members of any religion, because we don’t have a jealous god who gets angry at us when we “stray”. The worst that can happen is that we get angry with each other, like your grandfather does.
There are two probable reasons for this, but I don’t think either one is very strong.
1. Perhaps he thinks you’re betraying your principles by participating in worship. Only you know what your principles are, and whether you’re actually worshipping the Hindu gods by visiting these places. You probably don’t give that impression at all when you’re out there.
2. These trips may support the religion itself, whether through monetary donations or simply by giving the authorities and other visitors the impression that the Hindu faith is more widely shared than it really is. It’s perfectly reasonable to donate to a religion if the money helps to maintain sites of not only religious but social and historical significance, and which everyone can enjoy. Also, there are ways to make it clear to the general public that the religious aspect is not the main reason why many people are there; in fact they probably already know this.
As for whether you should be proclaiming your atheism wherever you go, that’s really not productive some of the time. Yes, it’s good when a decent amount of atheists are open about it because it encourages others to “come out”, but if they’re disruptive about it they may generate an amount of antagonism towards atheism that isn’t worth the publicity. (Read about the Crackergate affair, where a student walked out of a Catholic Mass with a consecrated wafer and Catholics everywhere went ballistic. Atheist commenters condemned Catholics for their pointless outrage, but few if any condoned the student’s actions.)
I honestly don’t see anything wrong with what you’re doing, if you don’t. It might be useful to know exactly why your grandfather objects, in case I’ve missed the mark regarding his motivations. Maybe Rohit, our near-resident “cultural Hindu” atheist commenter, can help too.
Why Do We Die?
Question from Casey:
How do you comprehend death? How do manage to remain sane knowing that someone has been ripped from your lives for what you believe to be no reason?
Answer by Andrea:
Hi Casey,
I don’t see death as being “no reason.” As a science buff/journalist, I see it more as the natural order of things, as far as old age goes (please see the law of entropy).
If death is due to sickness or murder (not that I can speak from experience in latter case), I find it much more comforting to think of it as being a random event that we have no control over, rather than some capricious god who chose to “off” someone “just because.”
My dear grandmother passed away from old age and she often told me she was afraid of dying alone. There was not much I could do, since my life is not in Europe, but what I did do was visit for the summers and write a postcard to her every 1-2 weeks. I think it helped.
Often we say to ourselves, we’ll do this and that with this person sometime. But in my case, I did what I could then, and when she passed away I felt awful and missed her very much, but it made me feel so much better that I did what I could while she was alive.
And that’s all you can do.
I’m not sure what your situation is with respect to this question, but please accept my sympathies if they are warranted, and I’m so sorry there’s probably nothing I can say that time won’t eventually take care of.
Best to you,
Andrea
Answer by SmartLX:
There’s always a reason why people die. There may not be any purpose to it, but there’s always a reason: they were old, or they were murdered, or there was an accident, or their immune system failed them. When we ask why someone has died, this kind of answer is always available to some extent. Furthermore, this kind of answer is often useful in the prevention of other deaths, for example by catching the killer, fencing off the cliff edge or preventing the disease.
To my mind, knowing that there’s no purpose to a loved one’s death is no worse that believing there is a purpose but having no idea what it is, and no hope of ever knowing. The suffering and death of a good person is hard to explain in a world with an all-powerful, benevolent guardian watching over us (though that doesn’t stop people from explaining it…in many different ways), but it’s really very easy to explain in a world with no such being: it happened because of this and this, and it’s sad that the person is gone but they left their mark on the world.
If you imagine that atheists are completely at a loss when confronted with death then you imagine that our worldviews are simply the Christian worldview with a God-shaped hole in it. (This is becoming a catchphrase with me.) It sounds obvious but it’s worth specifically considering that when one doesn’t believe in a god, one also doesn’t believe that meaning and purpose in life depend entirely on a god. Therefore the common existential challenge of comprehending death, while certainly a challenge (see this earlier question), does not automatically shatter an atheist.
If a recent death affecting your life is the reason you asked this question, I sympathise along with Andrea.