Hope Is A Plentiful Thing

Question from Jun:
This may be similar to a question already asked about dealing with adversity, but I feel it is sufficiently different to stand on its own: How does an atheist overcome thoughts of despair, of giving up, even suicide, when things look hopeless? Christians turn to passages in Scripture or to prayer. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thank you very much.

Answer by SmartLX:
That’s okay, I think Jake answered the last one about this so I haven’t had a go in a while.

Look at it this way: what does God provide that gives you hope and a reason to go on? Whatever the answer, atheists get it from somewhere else because since they don’t believe in God they don’t believe God is the only source of these things. That can be hard to comprehend for people who think God IS the only source, which is why this question crops up regularly, but without a central theist belief a lot of secondary theist assumptions which you might not even realise you make suddenly go out the window.

Purpose, for example, can come from almost anywhere because people choose their own purpose. Even those who believe in God admit they don’t know what God’s larger plan is or how they personally figure into it, so they make their own choices about how best to serve Him. Not thinking that one has a divine purpose isn’t much worse than not knowing what one’s supposed divine purpose is, and allows more freedom in the choice because it can go entirely outside the realm of religion. Many social and political activists choose what cause to support in direct opposition to the mainstream religious dictates of the day, some because they don’t think the deity is real and some because they think the deity actually disagrees with the religion. Whatever is most important to you in life can become your purpose if you throw yourself into it. And if it ceases to be fulfilling or worthwhile, you can spin on a dime and pursue something else.

To tackle the other major point, people looking for a reason not to commit suicide need not only a purpose but a reason to think there is good to be found in the world. The point is worth hammering that if God doesn’t exist, God isn’t the only source of good in the world because there IS good in the world regardless. However you define “good” it’s happening out there somewhere, you just need to look for it. There’s no denying that terrible things happen all the time, but even in the middle of tragedy some of the greatest deeds are found. The Reverend Fred (aka Mr) Rogers often said as his mother said to him that whenever something awful was happening one should look for the people helping.

Another thing atheists see differently is that they think this life is the only one we have. Therefore leaving it prematurely gives no chance of a better subsequent life. Happiness can only be found in this life, so the only way to achieve it is to stick it out.

20 thoughts on “Hope Is A Plentiful Thing”

  1. The time when the Atheist can struggle on when they are in their deep moments of despair and in their darkest hour, is when they reach out and find something to lean on, and grasp hold of something in the dark, and uses it to find support, not knowing that it is God doing for them, that which they did not accept that He would do, but He does it anyway to show them His love. And whether the Atheist is willing to admit it or not, more people find support in God then through any other means. And He has proved to be more lasting.

    1. Gerald writes: [And He has proved to be more lasting.]

      Not as lasting as Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism, or other god based religions that are older. But why let facts get in the way of your preaching.

      I can’t speak for all atheists, but most of the ones I know lean on each other, or family, or themselves, and get through the bad times that way. To be honest I see most believers (regardless of their favorite flavor of religion or god creature) doing the same thing. They spend time with family, friends, or colleagues, they take medications, they read self help books, they find therapy. For Jun to claim that Christians turn to prayer and scripture is not a realistic portrayal of what most people do…

      1. You need to come to our church. Not to say that what you say happens is not happening, but you will see a fuller picture of what it really is like among believers in Christ. Not what you see on the outside looking in. You should realize that in any group, there are its stragglers. It’s procrastinators. It’s good and bad. But what you don’t see are that the ones who are wrestling to be good do so trusting in God and in what His word says. And there are far more of other religions who are accepting Christ as their Savior than those who used to be Christians and are reaching out to find something new. Serving Christ is not a walk in the park. Serving Him means that you realize that He needs to have all of you in order to work the changed that He does. And many times some Christians don’t want to surrender all. And they realize that compromise is not going to be enough. So they jump ship thinking that going somewhere else will allow them the freedom to live the way they want to and still have the feeling that they are making progress. But most come back and realize that Christ is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Light.
        Some of those who used to be Atheists are witnesses to this. And they have not looked back, once they find that what they thought was fairytales was actually truth. God lives and He created us all.
        SmartLx stated, “Another thing atheists see differently is that they think this life is the only one we have. Therefore leaving it prematurely gives no chance of a better subsequent life. Happiness can only be found in this life, so the only way to achieve it is to stick it out.” Where is the proof that “this life is the only one we have”? No one has ever proven this to be the only life we have. Just because no one has crossed over and sent back a letter or telegram, doesn’t mean that there is no life beyond the grave. Truly this life is a miracle in itself. To say that categorically, that there is no life beyond, is like denying that this is no life where we are at now. Except that the proof is here that we are here. And so the proof will be there when we are there. The energy churning in our bodies is energy. And it can not be created, (at least not by man), and it can not be destroyed. So what if that energy is us. The energy from the sun, is not destroyed when it reaches the earth. It is changed into one form or another and transferred to this and that. So that energy is still energy. So who is to say or not, to say that, that energy is not changed to another type of unknown being. Or who is to say or not, that the Bible is not right that the person who once was a being incorporating our energy self, goes to sleep and later on is brought back as another life. I believe that SmartLx is shortsighted in many ways. And of a truth failing to realize that his desire to prove there is no God is interfering with learning what really is truth. It is factoring out the factor so that he can not rationalize logically.

  2. You talk a good game. But you and I know that everyone sooner or later realizes that without God all is futile. Almost everyone considers where it all started. And they feel a tug. That tug is God’s Holy Spirit telling you that God is there. Just as the most animals return to the place of their origins so to Man, has a yearning that is not quieted by anything, or anyone but God. You see it in everyone, who makes a decision to accept God or not. Those who don’t seek Him spend their time and money and never be satisfy, looking for this thrill or that. And the fortunate ones finally asks God to stop the incessant merry go round of insanity, and they finally stop running and accept that what He has been waiting for them to ask for. True peace and joy. If you would but stop and ask yourself why is it that so many Atheists who have at one time denounced the possibility of there being God and now they are trying to let their friends know that they have been wrong. Sure there are Christians who stop and go and stop and go. Christianity is not easy. But that is because it has a higher calling to live up to and those of us who accept that calling find that talk is cheap when it comes to being a Christian. We discover that the calling of Christ demands that we give our all. And sometimes we find it hard to give all. So we shirk and fall and an all patient God allows us to “evolve” into being able to give all. And that comes from spending the time with Him that helps us to trust more and see that He is worthy of our trust. Look around you at the Christians who have given their all. It is not all who say they are Christians, but there are enough who light up enough so that they make a difference. And so can you.

    1. Keep telling yourself all this, Gerald, yourself and your congregation if by any chance you have one. Tell yourself that anyone who doesn’t believe what you believe 1. must be fundamentally unhappy and 2. deep down, actually does believe what you believe. Dismiss the deconversions from Christianity to atheism as comings and goings and herald the conversions from atheism to Christianity as God at work.

      It’s the best way to reassure yourself and others that there is no reason to doubt if everyone else’s doubt is both false and harmful. It’s the best way to convince yourself that even if your every point in an online argument is dismantled (Tim, you’re doing good work mate) you still win because you’ve touched the atheists’ invisible inner Christians with the magic Word and it will do the work for you. Right up until you take stock after a few years and ask who has actually come around as a result of your efforts. Anyone here? Anyone online? Where else do you do this? Is it possible that God’s choosing NOT to work through you?

      Feel like letting loose a little kneejerk testimony right now? Go for it.

      1. Tim is doing a good job. Oh my. Are you fooling yourself. Or at least you are allowing someone to do so. And even if no one turns away from Atheism, (which I know will not be because of me but because of God’s Holy Spirit touching their hearts), but He will be still working through me. Because everyone must have every opportunity to hear what God has to tell them. You all are so comfortable, in your lions den. Safe and secure from all that would convict your souls. But God will not stop trying to reach you. And one day you may even press Him to press even harder to reach you. Knocking you down and almost out to get you to wake up and smell the coffee. Will this change you. Well that will be up to you. It changed King David. But it didn’t Pharaoh of Egypt. Reassurance is something I know you all are doing now. Circling your cover wagons. Trying to encourage one another. Hoping that you won’t be left alone with no one to tell you that you are right. There is no God. “right”. But I say again if what I have put forth, why not point out my error. Explain to me how you feel that a brand new life could just come into being and have the knowledge to direct itself to do all that it would need to do to not only survive all the millions of years you are saying that it would have had to need in order to get to the point to be able to start to morph. How could it have survived all that time. And where is the proof that time would have fixed all the seemingly insurmountable hurdles that would have confronted this new life. Let me know if I am mistaken that all organisms are passed down a certain amount of programming from their kind. So tell me how this new life form could have possibly overcome this obstacle. It wouldn’t have know that it was alive. It wouldn’t have known that it needed survive. Nor what it would have needed to survive. It would have been less viable then a clone. At least a clone would have had preprogramming from where the cells were taken. Your supposed life form would have not had not even that advantage. Once again explain to me how not only could a life form come forth from nothing, but also how could it have been able to be directed to obtain and do all things necessary to become the “one” of all species. And also explain to me how the fact that we have 0 reason to assume that life could possible have come from nothing when the observation has always been that life comes only from another life form. And that each life form has always produced one of its same kind. So please enlighten me as to the reason for you taking leave of your senses and blindly accepting assumptions that have no logical evidence.

  3. No, I’m afraid you are looking for something much deeper than that my friend. You want someone to fold up God nice and neatly and place Him in a container so that you can study Him and possible dissect Him and then decide what to do. You want Him to perform for you. But God is God. He has given you reason to believe. You choose not to accept it. All that is around us is a virtual impossibility. You say it is luck and accident. You look in the mirror and say accident. God laughs and says another hard nut. And that is alright. The way things have gone He knows that skepticism is healthy for a Christian. He doesn’t want us to just fall over and let in any lie. That is how all the other religions started. That is why the Bible became indispensable. So that the true could be known. That is why Jesus came. To give us the clearest picture of His Father of who God really is. And that is the reason many of your former Atheists have jumped ship when they went to study the Bible, and they met Jesus. They found what the Bible had to offer. That was Jesus. All folded up neatly and brought to you to meet and get to know. There are many reasons that should make you say that what I’m doing makes no sense. First off, the Theory of Evolution, falls way short of shedding light as to how life and everything became. It only makes assumptions while claiming that any pertinent questions that arise are only trivial and would be answered in the end when enough time passes. Second the theory of Evolution, is built upon a foundation that lacks substance. It requires one to basic logic and reason while only making claims of being able to prove its assumption without ever doing so. It tells the believer to ignore what they and their ancestors have observed and experienced over years of life and accept an impossibility as an answer to the question that they have. But when that answer is being handed to them it is as a cup with a whole in the bottom and nothing is actually inside. It is truly strange that you shy away from attempting to answer my questions I brought forth. Hoping that they will go away and you can sooth the clamor in your heart, in your mind as your conscience whispers “Am I wrong?” “Is there really God and have I been wasting my time, not getting to know Him?” Why have so many other Atheists turned and accepted Christ as God? And I dare say that, I have, or my questions have been on your mind on and off. Else why the constant perusing of your website. And why just now you attempt to bolster the confidence of your fledgling. Yes, you can muffle the cry that you hear. You can distract yourself with an untold number of the things that this world has to offer. All specifically made by our arch-enemy satan to keep you from getting really serious and interested, to keep you from noticing that your unbelief makes no sense, and that that yearning in your heart is not really there. But then you remember when you were younger and the yearning was overwhelming and you had to put your faith in something. All the wrong things, that failed to satisfy. And when that half hearted attempt to know Him, was met with surrender and sacrifice, where you had to give your time and give up the things that you wanted to place in front of Him, He became to much of a bother and out He went so that you could do what you wanted. Think what you wanted. Be what you wanted. No matter, He waits for another opportunity to come in and this time He hopes you, after all that you have experienced, will finally see that what you have experienced didn’t do anything for you and you will surrender to Him. Your choice. He won’t bulldoze the entrance of your heart. He won’t overwhelm your senses with His majesty. No, that will only come when you have accepted Him and His love because you want to, not because you have been mesmerized by the things that peek your interest one day but grow dim as they don’t satisfy. That is why many of your other used to be Atheist friends have found Him to be what they need. Because the grew dissatisfied with all the talk and no substance. All the claims of life but emptiness only found. And the sad truth is too many settle for that emptiness and just make do. Never seeking Him with all their hearts and missing the opportunity that they really were looking for.

    1. Sometimes you’re like one of those toy flowers that plays noise and dances when it senses movement or sound. One word and you’re at it for ages, as demonstrated above.

      If there isn’t a god, there is a 100% probability that natural abiogenesis occurred, regardless of how. I don’t think there’s a god for several reasons, most of them unrelated to biology. Biologists can’t say for certain that abiogenesis did not occur (and most are not inclined to because it looks like a workable theory is close) so you certainly can’t. Therefore you can’t argue that there’s a god on the basis that abiogenesis can’t have occurred and hope to ever convince me or anyone like me. You’d need to establish (not assert) the existence of God before we even started the conversation about whether He/She/Xe/It created life. So start somewhere else.

      Tim’s not my fledgling and he doesn’t need his confidence boosted, he’s doing just fine. I’ve been remiss in not thanking him and others (shout outs to Gary, Rohit and Niki) for their efforts, and you’re reading far too much into my mentioning him by name for the first time in an exchange with you.

      I don’t have to peruse the website constantly, I get an email alert whenever anyone submits a comment or officially Asks something and I know exactly when my input is needed. I honestly don’t know whether you’re alerted too when people reply to you, but it does seem that you’re here longer than I am during a given week. My best guess as to why (besides that our answers are often on your mind) is that you want to always have a comment which is unanswered (even if the same material is answered already in a previous thread), so that you can claim to someone (perhaps yourself) that it is unanswerable and you’ve “won”. This is a difficult thing to attempt on a site called Ask the Atheist, the defining purpose of which is to answer what’s asked of us.

  4. “Sometimes you’re like one of those toy flowers that plays noise and dances when it senses movement or sound.” I haven’t seen these. But the ones that move when sunlight hits them are cool. So almost as awesomely made like our bodies and minds that you mistakenly believe could have been accidentally “morphly” made by some mindless, unguided, random act of haphazardness. You see, once you learn to sift those theories that are built around irrationality, your brain will finally get back to where it can actually be able to comprehend what really is truth.
    A “workable theory” Workable by whom?, by what?. That same mindless, unguided strand of chemical molecules that are following long ago acts of programming that in themselves should cause undisciplined minds like yours to realize that they also were made to do the bidding of the One that called them into being and programmed them as they came right off the assembly line of His mind.
    If Tim is doing just fine, why hasn’t he, or you for that matter, answered the simplest questions that are boring holes in your precious theory of Evolution. The people who came up with the theory, ignored the fact, that you are desperately evading right now that life comes only from life. Its as if you are trying to resurrect a theory that Science, yes that’s right, that Science, declared to be one of its darkest moments of irrational, when they began to entertain the “spontaneous regeneration” theory. Where they mistakenly believed that life could come from nothing then. Now, someone has been infected with that same irrationality mind sickness and is being used to send man down paths of illogical tangents so that their minds won’t work on truths that will ennoble and strengthen the minds. Look at you all. Like a baby that is fighting sleep, you all are fighting the plain facts that we were created by an Intelligence, the like of which, I think makes you all tremble in your boots. And I think you all subconsciously realize it, but are hoping against hope that you are wrong. Come on. As I said before. My intelligence probably does not come close to ” yourn” and I can see the irrational logic that you are focusing on the sinking ship of Evolution. And many of the used to be Evolutionists who have jumped ship and instead are now supporting the Intelligent Design theory, have also realized. And that is that there is no part of the big bang and Evolution that comes close to explaining the mysteries of life and of this universe. You are only wasting time, grey matter and other valuable resources that would be better spent focusing on Intelligent design.

    1. All of the following has been explained to you in other terms, but here as simply as I can are the main three reasons why this kind of appeal isn’t working for you, except supposedly in the invisible deep-in-the-soul way that’s impossible to verify until the sudden road-to-Damascus moment that none of your targets here ever seem to have.

      1. There are well-known answers to many of the questions you ask about evolution, they’ve been given over and over, and it doesn’t matter that you don’t accept them because we do and we’re the ones you’re trying to persuade (unless you really are just trying to reassure yourself). There are some questions we don’t know the answers to, but simple logic dictates that just because one does not know the answer does not mean someone who claims to have the answer is right.

      2. Evolution is not the single thread by which our atheism is hanging. If the theory of evolution collapses the process will return to being an unknown as it was before 1859, but we’ll still have other reasons to reject the idea of a creator God. (Richard Dawkins admits he was brought from atheism to belief by the argument from design and that may be the source of your optimism, but he was a teenager at the time, and he realised it was without merit while he was still a teenager.)

      3. You’re not about to accept this one, but we are not all subconscious believers. There are people in this world who disagree with you, and it says a lot about you that this is not even possible in your worldview.

      As for the “Evolutionists” who have become creationists (calling themselves Intelligent Design proponents or not), they have given their reasons in print and we do not think they are valid reasons. That’s a general statement but so was yours; if you want to pursue this, name a name. Unless the name is Antony Flew; him we’ve already discussed, and as above, not valid reasons.

      1. “All of the following has been explained to you in other terms”. No, nothing has been explained. You have gone around and around stating this and stating about the theory and how it is imagined. But no evidence has been produced as proof. Just because you say something happened doesn’t make it evidence. It must be backed up with some kind of picture or reproduction of what you sated happening. Before the theory of gravity was accepted the evidence had to be shown. So what goes up was shown how it came down.
        You look at a fossil and theorize just how that fossil came to be as it is presently found. You interject this and that and surmise that it used to be a different species that may or may not be extinct. But never once has it been shown that it morphed from what you say the other species was. And yet, and yet and yet, all the while, we only always observe that each species, is producing its own species. It has never failed for the last 6 to 7 thousand years that we have been present on this earth. You want to ignore the main tool of science and instead go with an assumption that also ignore the factor of what has been observed, making you and it an invalid theory, supported by “not there” proof. And you and all the other Atheists are living the definition of what insanity is. Continuing doing the same unproductive thing, over and over again, getting the same result all the while, but hoping that one day, due to your dogged determination and the persistence of time, the all overcoming power of your god evolution will save the day. But you have never proven that factor that you believe in. That time was and is able to overcome all the red flags that point to what observation has already said. That each species has only always produced its same species. And now you go on with your eyes closed and your ears covered so that you will not possibly be able to at last realize and accept that evolution should be fazed out and Intelligent Design is the only logical answer to the question “how did everything become?”
        Come on SmartLx. Even Dawkins has and is hemming and hawing. And you know what, I’m not entirely sure about how God did it all. I mean He put it into terms that we could grasp with our finite, feeble intelligence. But when you look at the complexity of it all as Dawkins did, it has to make you wonder, with awe at what we don’t know. And that should force us to go back to the drawing boards and press and push to understand as much as we can while on this earth, as we are. God is not scared or worried about the questions. Nor about the uncertainties. Because He knows that these will cause us to search. And searching only leads us closer to the truth. What He worries about is the apathy. The accepting things as they are without the questioning. Because man is at his best when he questions. Man can thrive in striving to understand the Mysteriousness of God. But that is the one thing that can not be tossed aside. That there is not God. Because then you reject a factor that is the most plausible of all. Dawkins saw it when he did an about face and almost committed himself to the possibility of God. But many other Atheists have since dove in and found the life that God intends for all of us to find. Life in Him. Life as He meant for us to experience. I told you. All you have to do is ask. And it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. But admit that what is not right, isn’t and then go on from there. Because like it or not, what you are saying and where you are walking is impressing others, and they may not get back. They may be lost. At least open the door for them to help them to realize that Evolution is not the panacea of the explanations to life, that the Evolutionist is trying to make it out to be. And that there are other possibilities that could be the truth. At least one other. Intelligent Design.

        1. Speciation, right here. Species producing other species in front of our eyes. I know exactly how you’re going to respond to that but let’s have it anyway.

          Dawkins was 12 when the argument from design convinced him, and he was over it by 16. He’s on camera hemming and hawing over one question, but only because he was furious at the realisation that creationists were in his home under false pretenses. Otherwise I’d say he’s still pretty staunch.

          I don’t doubt that atheists have dived into Christianity, but Christians of all levels are diving out too. The Clergy Project exists to help the huge number of priests, church elders, etc. who are trapped in their positions after having lost their faith. Ask yourself whether you examine their reasons as carefully as you would ask me to look into the Christian conversion stories.

          Intelligent Design is a possibility like any other hypothesis, there’s just no evidence for it. To point at all of life itself as evidence for it is useless, as you can call it evidence of anything if you don’t reason through the steps to the conclusion. The steps to Intelligent Design invariably involve an argument from ignorance at the point where you declare that there is no known way X could have come about naturally, so it is logically unsupportable.

  5. I have grappled with this question … much more in the last two years than I did at the beginning of my giving up the god concept (which was around 8 to 10 years or so ago). The god concept offered a refuge of sort for sure, and I confess its taken me quite a while to figure out how to stay unperturbed (or less perturbed than usual) and effective in adverse life situations as an atheist.
    Its a question ultimately of one’s source of hope … for the god-embracing individual, a clear source is scripture, prayer etc. For the god-forsaking (yep, I wrote that deliberately 🙂 ) individual, what’s the source of hope?

    I think the answer for the atheist lies in understanding ourselves more deeply, psychologically speaking. Also, a few other general concepts help me at-least (as I explain below).

    1. First of all, I think it is important to realize we are primed to be much more impacted by negative events than by positive. This has obvious survival value and is thus biologically programmed into us.
    Knowing and understanding this helps one regulate one’s negative emotions in turbulent times.
    Our brains overthink the impact of the turbulence in our lives. Its like pissing in one’s pants seeing a roller coaster and the screaming people on it from the ground. The actual ride’s (once you are in the roller coaster) is quite tolerable (and even thrilling).
    Most of the times we survive the turbulence and often learn from it (and even learn clever strategies to avoid it).

    2. Being depressed and suicidal arises quite a bit (in my view) from linear habits of thinking. The world is actually non-linear and the systems around us are actually quite robust (and not as fragile as our fools-for-the-negative brains would have us believe.
    We look into our future linearly … think that it is terrible (extrapolating from our current “terrible” condition – which actually is probably just a somewhat bad condition magnified into being “terrible” by our fools-for-negative brains). This leads to suicidal or depressive thoughts. We stop taking small or big actions towards improving/ getting out of our situations. The situation worsens. And ultimately things collapse.
    If one understands (or at-least acknowledges) non-linearity then there is no logic in stopping small (or big) actions. A series of positive small actions can lead to a whole churning of the situation over time … that’s just how non-linearity works. But of-course if you take no action at all and brood over things instead, nothing at all happens (usually things just get worse) and one can’t break the negative feedback circuit.

    3. It is also necessary to understand that a lot of depression and hopelessness is related to expectations and status seeking. We expect certain things from others based on our outlooks. When these expectations get dashed, we get depressed. Similarly, our linear thinking makes us expect certain things from the world – again a dashing of such linear expectations leads to heartache.
    People will be better, more fortunate etc. than us, statistically speaking. This may help them acquire a better status in life than us. And our status seeking selves don’t really like that one bit (though we do a good job of convincing ourselves otherwise).

    4. Depression and hopelessness arising out of a loss of a loved one is the pain caused by the ending of a bond that caused positive imprinting at some stage in our lives. It is psychologically very painful to deal with ending of such strong bonds (i.e. bonds that caused positive imprinting). But learning to deal with this without invoking the god concept is very fruitful – since such bonds keep forming and breaking throughout our lives.

    5. Hopelessness also arises out of severe negative imprinting (being in a very traumatic situation in the past). Again, learning to overcome this on one’s own (without the god concept) can be very fruitful and liberating (though it is very difficult to psychologically overcome such trauma).

    I think understanding and coming to terms with the points above has helped me greatly in dealing with negative/ debilitating events much better than any spiritual philosophy or religion or praying ever did.

  6. “The steps to Intelligent Design invariably involve an argument from ignorance at the point where you declare that there is no known way X could have come about naturally, so it is logically unsupportable”. SmartLx. That is not at all true. Once again you wish to or are just not able to realize it still all comes down to what Science, SCIENCE, used to say was the tool it used to reveal the secrets of the unknown. That is the tool of observation. Now at the risk of being accused of repeating myself, I want to reiterate that it has always only been seen that life comes from life. So there has been enough reason to primarily expect that life will always come from life. And the more that happens the more we will always assume that it will always be the same. Now it is also logical to assume that same logical
    Format working backwards. You claim or complain that you have had to “peat” and repeat what you have been spouting as words of proof for the theory of Evolution. But all you have done is thrown out the same “this is how we believe it happened, (and just as when the theory was first thought of,)there has never been nor is there now, no evidence that gives support to any of the suppositions of Evolution. You fail to meet the requirements of proof to lend aid to your floundering, indeed sinking theory. The arguments I pointed to should have been addressed long before the theory of Evolution was openly spoken of as a theory. Please don’t tell me I’m wrong. I’ve pointed out my reason’s for doubt. Discuss why you feel my arguments do not change your minds.

    1. Okay, here’s why you’re not convincing.

      No one on any side of this issue thinks life has always existed, and therefore everyone thinks that at some point it came from something which wasn’t life. It does not extend backwards indefinitely. If a god exists, that god might have caused it. If no god exists, it must have happened naturally. The simple reason why your argument does not convince atheists is that the only reason to think a god did it is if you already think there is a god. If you don’t start off with that belief, the existence of a god entity is far more difficult to accept as true than a single occurrence of natural abiogenesis, in some way, somewhere on the planet, after a billion years or so, even if you have no idea how. If you try to argue that it can’t have happened naturally, which you have done rather a lot, you are making an argument from ignorance.

      It appears that you have not changed your approach because you do not accept that we really don’t believe in your god. It seems far easier to bring latent or hidden belief to the surface than to create new belief from scratch. In this way you may be overestimating your chances, and giving yourself false hope, but if the supposed fact of universal theistic belief is dictated to you by Romans 1:20 or by some presuppositionalist, you’ll be resolute in that false hope for some time.

      1. ” No one on any side of this issue thinks life has always existed” So then, just exactly why do you think it is logical to assume that somehow something, especially some kind of life, could have just accidentally popped into being, even though it has never been observed for life to ever have done so, over the 6000 plus years that we have been upon the earth? And also explain how it is logical, to assume that a recently appearing out of nowhere, first ever of its kind of life could be able to have the essential preprogramming that any kind of life coming from a parent, would have needed in order for it to be directed to perform impossible to do with out functions that without them life would not have been possible. Also, please explain how this first ever kind of life would have been able to survive the millions and millions of years evolutionists claim would have made it to be able to evolve and become the ancestor of all other species. And then explain the fact that we do not see the first ever life form evolving today into all the other species. If it has been able to do so in the beginning, then, just as all the other species do what they do best, this first ever life form should be doing its thing today. And the last for now, just why is it that we do not see any species evolving into other species today. Are there no more other species to morph into today. Are there no other possible imperfections that need to be overcome today. IE,Smog. the hunter, bullets, global warming. Animals are seen drowning day after day, yet we don’t see, them or their young developing gills, or wings for that matter. Surely if these species came from such before it would be no simple matter to reverse engineer, the process that brought them to be as they are? Even the lowly bacteria remembers and passes along those memories to their new selves. And since we see in the “adaptation evolution” (that you claim to be evolution), the species that are manipulated to adapt are found to be able to revert back to the original trait that they were manipulated to changed from. Why can’t these species, that came from previous species evolve back to what ever they came from and make lungs and wings. Becoming what is needed to not drown. Just why is it that you can’t explain why these things are not happening except for the fact that they were not ever evolved species, but created just as they were and are, by a Master Designer that knew what He was doing and preprogrammed into the DNA of each species a “certain amount of necessary to be able to do things” that would aid it in its quest for survival, until He returned.
        You keep saying “this is how it really was, the Creationist has it wrong”, you keep pointing me to others who have claimed this or that, but never show any kind of concrete proof to show how anything that is said to be proof has been able to be duplicated to show that what they claim was how it was. All of what is offered is here say. Not witnessed, or reduplicated and offered as proof.
        I present that, through observation your claim that life came out of nowhere is refuted. We only observe life coming from other life. And the fact that the Evolutionist continues to push that all life came from one that suddenly popped into being, they are essentially intimating that life came from either non life or from nothing. One, from non life has already been discounted by science itself years before when the “spontaneous generation theory” was thrown out. And the other coming from nothing, is thrown out because we only see life coming from life. Life coming from life with some kind of intelligence. And we see that the more complex the life the higher the intelligence had to have been in order to create that life. And from the fact that what ever is being produced in the laboratory, is being done by someone with an intelligence. Showing that it would have taken superior intelligence to make organisms such as what we see today.

        1. Gerald writes: [And also explain how it is logical, to assume that a recently appearing out of nowhere, first ever of its kind of life could be able to have the essential preprogramming that any kind of life coming from a parent, would have needed in order for it to be directed to perform impossible to do with out functions that without them life would not have been possible.]

          Sounds like you just made an argument against god…

          1. How so? The Atheist argues that life came from nothing. Not that they say so out right, but it is implied when they argue that all life came from a single simple celled or other entity. As I stipulated earlier, or as I attempted to do, is to show how enormously irrational and unthoughtful ness this thinking is. Because it takes preprogramming of some sort to direct a life that comes into being. That is why all bacteria, and viruses and other one celled organisms that are brought forth, are able to fend at least to a limited degree when they arrive. And this is dependent upon how simple or complex they are. The more simpler the organism, the more original programming is innately instilled in its DNA. The more complex the organism, the more that organism will need to depend upon its parent to survive. But a brand new never before having been organism, would not have had anything previously around to transfer innate abilities. So it would have useless for that entity to have come into life. For it would have merely been extinguished. That is the reason that it took an Intelligence to create and sustain all life forms. Because of all the intricacies that we see for those organisms to be able to survive. So the idea that all species came about from one new life force is entirely impossible. And of course to suggest that the new species came self equipped and enabled smacks too much like an Intelligent being having sent that life force here just as we do when we send a space probe out into the cosmos. You can’t get around it, ladies and gentlemen of the Atheistic community, life had to have been made by a Creator. Even though it may make you gag, or vomit to have to admit it. There is no other logical explanation as to how life and indeed all else arrived into being.

  7. “far more difficult to accept as true than a single occurrence of natural abiogenesis, in some way” Please name anything that happens naturally that occurs only once, in nature. There are none. Any natural occurrences continue happening, over and over again. So to ignore what you and everyone else observes and assume beyond reason that it must have been accidentally brought about despite that the way you assume has never before or since to have taken place, is not logical but insane. It goes contrary to logic and therefore reason. We know, we have seen that life comes from life. We are witnesses to that fact. So it is more logical to assume that all life was given life. Especially when you take a few things into account. One. How could a new life just co m e into being and even though it would have been absolutely impossible for that life to g Ave g had programming to direct to perform even simple acts of feeding and waste removal or propagate. Nor would, it or could it have been pre retrofitted with the mechanism to perform any of these functions. Because as even the Atheist accepts that all of these functions especially that of propagation would essentially mean that evolution would have needed to be employed to be able to have been able to perform them. 2. The question that should arrise, (especially for the Atheist) if the suddenly appearing life form was able to just appear, now the question of just how did that organism become able to perform essential practices to not only survive, but to also become every living thing. The evolutionist cries because of evolution, stating that the passing of extreme amounts of time was able to maje the new life form to become aware enough and mechanically able enough to perform all that the evolutionist espouses for it to have done. Yet there are no evidences that indicate in any way that evolution, or the passing of any amount of time can enable any organism to become anything but older. That life form would have needed to show up capable to perform. Meaning that it wouldn’t have had time to evolve and become something else or something better. It would have needed to arrive already preprogrammed so to do what any new organism must do to survive. In other words it would have shown up fully evolved, just as some of the scientists have stated about all the fossils that have been unearthed so far. And that there are no transitional fossils showing any kind of evolution. Now point 3. Explain why this life form isn’t producing, morphing out new life forms now. Supposedly your amounts of extreme time has passed already and the process has had practicle application for many more years. So this supposedly natural practice should be occuring even today. We can observe this fact by watching every single organism performing it’s life’s duty over and over again. Halting only for death, only to be replaced by a decendant that has been pre in coded to perform the same functions. Yet your claims that it all happened suddenly and accidentally, by the first ever happening life form, goes unseen. Unobserved. Unwitnessed. Adding even more fuel of doubt and making it clear that evolution is an unprovable, impossibility that deserves nothing more from us but to be slowed to flame out and expire. And to all of this is the impossibility of the claim that evolution can explain the many intricacies of all the systems needing to be able to function at one time to allow the survival of each species, and to not have them would most assuredly mean that the species would never have survived. And which declares without a doubt that each species would have needed to arrive on point with preprogramming in their DNA. With systems primed and functioning. And not needing millions of years to be what they are. Or were. And for the evolutionist to insist that an already fully functioning life form appearing all of a sudden, only causes doubt to be raised for its own theory. For if it were possible for a fully functioning life form to have appeared all of a sudden, not requiring the millions of years to evolve, then why would any of the species need to have evolved. Indeed this road of reason, leads us right back to Bible narration where God spoke and it was. He commanded and it stood fast.
    No go back to the drawing board. Your logic comes up short of reason.

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