Near Death Experiences – does Christianity “win”?

Question from Kustav:
I was wondering something with regards to Near Death Experiences.

Why is it that I can find numerous NDEs where the experience entails Jesus, but I cannot find any NDEs where a Muslim for example meets Muhammad, or a Hindu meets Krishna. I have however, read stories of Atheists, Jews, Muslims, and even Hindus meeting Jesus. I was wondering, even hypothetically, if it was true that no NDEs of Muhammad exist within the Muslim world, with all the NDEs documented with Jesus, does this give Christianity more merit or truth value? What is your opinion?

Answer by SmartLX:
Hindu NDE claims are actually quite common, as researchers in India have found and documented here. In contrast, see number 8 on this list for the Muslim perspective on NDEs. In short, Muslims have scriptural reasons to think they wouldn’t be conscious of any NDE they had, they also have scriptural reasons not to talk about any NDEs they do have, and yet a few Muslims still claim to have had them.

So your main question is indeed a hypothetical one, but I’m fine with that so here we go. For NDEs to be any support at all for the existence of a particular deity the veracity of the NDEs themselves would have to be established, and this has never been done. Past that hurdle, for the majority of NDEs being of one type to support the existence of that afterlife and that god, one would have to eliminate other possible reasons for the disparity, and that’s rather difficult. Islam has reasons built in for being light on NDEs as I mentioned, but the main issue is that NDEs are a cultural meme which is reinforced as it becomes more common. If a Christian has an NDE it fits very well with the theology and there’s an army of people ready to believe it without ever asking for evidence, which only encourages more claims. (Do you have any idea how much money Heaven Is for Real made?) Christianity may simply be ahead of the social curve on the topic.

18 thoughts on “Near Death Experiences – does Christianity “win”?”

  1. Whichever one experiences, whether alive or dead, sleeping or awake, when that experience is going to be used to form an opinion, or used as a basis to build a belief upon, then one must be careful to gather all the facts and seek help in applying all those facts to a logical conclusion.
    First, let’s see if we can just dismiss all of these LDE’s. Can they all be discounted as purely made up or accounted to the lack of oxygen due to asphyxia. Is it due to some wild imaginations of some, as is the theory of evolution. Or is there some One that is actually directing, trying to communicate in a last ditch effort with that person. But we need something to use as a measure stick to help us sift through the wrong and get to the truth. And that is the use of the Bible. If the advice you obtain from friends, family, associates, is backed up by what the Bible gives, go with it. It it doesn’t, run from it as you would from the plague.

    1. Kustav – Gerald’s above post is a classic example of why you want to avoid getting information from proselytizing believers. He speaks about NDE’s (and possible causes) and then tells you, from out of the blue, that you should use the Bible as a measuring stick to help “sift through the wrong and get to the truth”. Why should you do this? Oh, he doesn’t state any of that. You are just supposed to take his word for it. See what he did there? He talks about possible medical reasons (lack of oxygen for example) and then tells you to use a 2000 year old collection of writings to make your determination. This is the same book that tells you, in dealing with leprosy, to get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.

      Makes you wonder what else believers are using the Bible as a source of information for. The possibilities are rather frightening…

      1. Kustav? Was there a question in there some where? It is no secret, we’ll except to you, that the Bible, over and over again has been shown to be a reliable source of information formation. No one has ever been able to prove that the Bible has given false I formation or information that is I correct. (And many have tried, but go no avail. And if what I have just said, why do most of the Christians still hold the Bible as their basis for belief. I included the Bible for a source of information be a useful it is the only book that I know of that deals with life before and after death. I do not see why the Bible should not be consulted. If you know of another source with a more proven track record for good direction, (especially for spiritual direction) I am open to discuss this also. Any way, what is your reason for rejecting or calling my post into question? Have you ever found reason to question the validity or the purpose of the Bible?

        1. Kustav – The Bible has been shown time and again, at this website and many others, to be unreliable. In Genesis 1 and 2 we get two different stories of the order of appearance of animals and man. We are also told that plants came before the sun, that bats are birds, and other utter nonsense. The Bible has claimed a worldwide flood event which can be proven to be impossible. The various Codex and other ancient texts have shown just how much editing and changing the Bible has gone through over time, not to mention the exclusion of other works like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene by the early leaders of the church.

          This has all been pointed out to believers on this site previously of course, easily proven with a quick check of the comment sections. But the cultists continue preaching in each and every topic regardless of the topic. That’s why we get Bible verses when someone asked about NDE’s…

  2. Lesson 14 – Revelation’s Hell-Fire, Revealing God’s Love
    The story is told of a young man born in New York, the son of a Christian
    minister. And as a preacher’s son, he often found himself in a position of
    hardship due to meeting his father’s stern requirements. Every time he
    would err or do something wrong, his father would sit him down and
    sharply reprimanded him. He threatened, “Robert, if you keep committing
    these sins, Almighty God is going to put you in hell and burn you forever
    and ever! ” After years of this, the young man finally had enough. In in his
    desperation one day, he couldn’t take it any longer. He retorted, “Dad, if
    that’s the kind of God you serve, I don’t want anything to do with Him.”
    and he got up and left home. He soon became known as Mr. Robert
    Ingersall, the world renowned atheist who hated the Bible and defied God.
    All because of this one teaching: hell-fire.
    The devil has confused people so much on this subject. And
    through the ages, a lot of money has been raised over this subject
    as people were led to fear God as a cruel, hateful being who loved
    to roast people in the fires of hell. So on the onset, let’s ask two
    questions. 1. What kind of God do we serve–loving or cruel? John
    3:16 answers that, God is love! 2. Is God in partnership with the
    devil? Is the devil God’s hired superintendent to keep people
    roasting and toasting through eternity? No! God has nothing to do
    with the devil! The Bible will make this subject very clear and simple
    as we go through all the texts.
    Truly, friends, in every subject of the Bible, God`s love and desire
    to save is revealed. Even in this twisted truth, you will see we serve
    a God of love, and we will see His love in Hell-fire. There are three
    basic questions in this subject. WHEN, WHERE, and HOW LONG
    will hell-fire burn? We will address them in this order. In our
    previous lesson, we studied that there would be only two groups
    when Jesus comes–the righteous and the wicked. One is saved
    and taken to heaven, the other is lost and destroyed in hell.
    The word hell is used 55 times in the Bible, but this word has
    several meanings. In the Old Testament and New Testament the
    word “Sheol” or “Hades” is used 42 times meaning the grave. Then
    in the New Testament, we also find the word “Gehenna” is used
    meaning a place of burning. It is used 12 times. So every time you
    read “hell” it does not always mean “fire.” One must look at the
    context to see if it is referring to “the grave,” or “the place of fire.”
    Let’s begin with our first question.
    WHEN WILL HELL-FIRE BURN?
    In Matthew 13:36- 43, Jesus gives the parable of the tares. “Then
    Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his
    disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the
    tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth
    the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good
    seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children
    of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the
    harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As
    therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be
    in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
    and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and
    them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
    there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the
    righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who
    hath ears to hear, let him hear.” He says the harvest is at the end of
    the world. The Bible never contradicts itself. Remember we studied
    that the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus comes? That’s in
    perfect harmony. Notice verses 49-50, “So shall it be at the end of
    the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked From
    among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there
    shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Let’s get another text, 2
    Peter 2:9, “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of
    temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to
    be punished.” God reserves the wicked until the day of judgment.
    That should raise an intelligent question in your minds. How many
    people are in hell today? Not one. When will God judge? Let’s
    establish this. Second Timothy 4:1, “I charge thee therefore before
    God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the
    dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”
    Let`s read Revelation 20:11- 15,”And I saw a great white throne,
    and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven
    fled away;and there was found no place for them. And I saw the
    dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were
    opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
    and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in
    the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead
    which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which
    were in them: and they were judged every man according to their
    works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
    second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of
    life was cast into the lake of fire.” All are judged at the second
    resurrection at the end of the world. When we go to heaven, we will
    see God’s justice as we judge, and after the millennium. God will
    pronounce judgment and fire. He then devours the wicked.
    Revelation 20:9, “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and
    compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and
    fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”
    Below is an illustration of these events.
    SECOND COMING MILLENNIUM JUDGMENT DAY
    First Resurrection (saved) Second Resurrection (lost)
    Saints go to Heaven Hell-Fire from God
    First Death of Wicked Second Death of Wicked
    WHERE IS HELL?
    Revelation 20:9 added some light. It said they would be on the
    “breadth of the earth” when fire comes down from God. Proverbs
    11:31 says, “Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the
    earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.” The wicked are
    rewarded on the earth. Deuteronomy even says the mountains will
    be set on fire! Deuteronomy 32:22, “For a fire is kindled in mine
    anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the
    earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the
    mountains.” Hell is right here. Hell will burn over this whole earth. 2
    Peter 3:7, “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the
    same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of
    judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” The heavens and earth
    are reserved unto fire! Verse 10, “But the day of the Lord will come
    as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away
    with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
    the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
    The elements will melt with heat. All will be burned up! Verses 11-
    13, “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what
    manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and
    godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of
    God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the
    elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according
    to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein
    dwelleth righteousness.” Then God can create a new heaven and
    earth! Revelation 21:1, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
    for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there
    was no more sea.” There will be a new heavens and a new earth,
    the first is passed away. Hell-fire will be wonderful; for this earth, all
    sin, and all sinners will be burned up and God will make all things
    new! There is only one way to thoroughly destroy something. That
    is by fire! God will purify this earth with fire and sin will never exist
    again! Praise the Lord!
    HOW LONG WILL HELL-FIRE BURN?
    Here is where most people stumble. Here too is where the devil has
    distorted a few verses to cause many people to hate God, and to
    look at Him as a cruel tyrant. First let’s follow the Bible rule and get
    a complete picture by going through many verses on the subject.
    Then we will deal with a few of the seemingly difficult texts.
    Though the Bible does not give the exact length of time. we do
    know it will not be through all eternity. Here are three reasons why.
    1. If God says hell is going to burn on earth, and then says He will
    recreate a new heavens and a new earth here, how could He make
    a new earth if hell was burning throughout eternity?
    2. God is just and fair. Let’s say that Cain who killed one man was
    sent to hell 6,000 years ago, and then Hitler who killed millions
    joined him. Would it be fair for Cain to burn 6,000 years longer than
    Hitler? Absolutely not! Would it make any sense of justice for a
    short life of sins to be punished for eternity?
    3. We studied that man is not immortal, and only those who love
    Jesus will be given immortality, when He comes (1 Corinthians
    15:51)! But if the wicked burned through all eternity, would they not
    also have eternal life? To be tormented forever, you must live
    forever.

  3. (part 2)You see, reason alone tells us hell will not burn through eternity.
    Let’s go to the Word now and see. Romans 6:23, “For the wages of
    sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ
    our Lord.” The wages of sin is death. Another text that is famous
    around the world, John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he
    gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
    not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jesus said Himself in Matthew
    7:13.”Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is
    the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in
    thereat.” David way back in the Old Testament said it the same
    way. Psalms 37:9- 11, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that
    wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little
    while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently
    consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the
    earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
    “The wicked shall not be,” but the meek shall inherit the earth. Then
    read verse 20, “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the
    LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke
    shall they consume away.” The wicked perish, as the fat of lambs,
    into smoke they consume away. Isn’t that plain? David wrote of it
    again in Psalms 68:2, “As smoke is driven away, so drive them
    away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the
    presence of God.” “As was melteth … so the wicked perish.” One
    last text, Malachi 4:1- 3, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall
    burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly,
    shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith
    the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness
    arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up
    as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they
    shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do
    this, saith the LORD of hosts.” The wicked will be stubble, turned to
    ashes. And after God rains fire down to cleanse the earth, we can
    go out, and the wicked will be ashes under our feet. That’s clear!
    Let`s go back to Revelation 20:9,”And they went up on the breadth
    of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
    beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and
    devoured them.” As they try to capture the city, God puts an end to
    it. Verse 14 says it’s the second death. “And death and hell were
    cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” And chapter 21
    goes right on as God then creates a new heaven and earth. The
    first is passed away. Verse 4, “And God shall wipe away all tears
    from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
    nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former
    things are passed away.” There will be no pain or crying. If hell
    were burning through eternity, there would be! But no, in verse 5,
    God makes all things new. “And he that sat upon the throne said,
    Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for
    these words are true and faithful.” Do you see it now? Hell-fire is
    really wonderful! This earth with its corruption, movie houses,
    hospitals, jails, and all the things sin has caused, is going to be
    burned up, and all sin will forever be removed! And friends, the
    devil will be the kindling for the fire! Ezekiel 28:18-19, “Thou hast
    defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the
    iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst
    of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the
    earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know
    thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a
    terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” He will never be
    anymore! Praise the Lord! You see, the real issue in hell is not the
    “fire.” The fire is the quickest, most merciful way God can destroy
    sin and all sinners who love sin more than righteousness. The real
    “hell” is going to be the realization that we missed heaven and an
    eternity of joy because we counted the pleasures of sin more
    important than eternal life.
    God will make an end of sin and sinners forever. Never again will
    we have to know sin, for all things will be new. Nahum 1:9, “What
    do ye imagine against the LORD’ he will make an utter end:
    affliction shall not rise up the second time.” Sin shall not arise a
    second time! Let’s all choose to be in that group that will live forever
    and never again know what sickness is, or anything that has to do
    with sin. We can all be in that group if we so choose. Hell isn’t for
    people. God has prepared it for the devil and his angels (Matthew
    25:41). And God wants to save you. Ezekiel 33:11,”Say unto them,
    As I live, saith the Lord GOD. I have no pleasure in the death of the
    wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn
    ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”
    Thank God, we can look forward with great joy to spending a
    sinless eternity with Him. What a God of love!
    *A BRIEF HISTORY OF HOW THE DOCTRINES OF ETERNAL
    TORMENT AND THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL ENTERED
    THE CHURCH:
    Some have wondered how the doctrine of the natural immortality of
    the soul (the belief that when a man dies he goes immediately to
    heaven) and the doctrine of the eternal torment of the wicked (the
    belief that the fires of hell never go our) ever became a part of the
    Christian Church–especially in view of all that the Bible teaches
    concerning the sleep of the dead, and the utter destruction of the
    wicked. Again. let it be repeated that the testimony of Scripture is
    clear, convincing, and complete. We now wish to trace the history
    of how the Christian Church apostatized from the truth on this
    doctrine.
    The doctrine of man’s natural immortality had its origin, not as a
    revelation from God, but in a revelation to man by the old serpent
    among the beautiful trees of the garden of Eden. There the tempter

    1. That was a very long and detailed post to explain something that has nothing to do with Kustav’s question. If he wanted to know about hell fire I’m sure he would’ve asked about hellfire. This appears to be nothing more than preaching, which seems inappropriate given that this space is supposed to be related to discussing the question asked.

      By the way, Robert G. Ingersoll was known as the “Great Agnostic”, not an atheist, and Walt Whitman called him the greatest orator of his day. I cannot verify the claim you’ve made (actually the claim the website that you cut and paste that from without proper reference) that Ingersoll hated his father.

      1. You see, you don’t understand that both are from one single lie, that uses each other to support one another. And I fail to understand why you fail to see theif relationship to one another. To burn in hell you need to be able to live forever. Is there a hell? Yes, in the future. Is there a physical hell someplace, now? Nor. Hell will be when God prepares to remake the earth. Which is to come in the future. And sorry about the failure to disclose. I copied it at an earlier time and could not find from where I had obtained it. But that was not the point of the post. The post was to explain what the Bible really says about hell, about life eternal and when and for whom one or the other, each person will experience them. Please, if you have any questions, I will do my best answer them. (Using the Bible of course)

  4. The person you received your information about the birds and blood did not mention that the blood and birds were for after the High Priest had examined the person who had leprosy and upon examination the High Priest declared the person to have been free of leprosy. ” The Lord said to Moses, 2 “These are the regulations for any diseased person at the time of their ceremonial cleansing, when they are brought to the priest: 3 The priest is to go outside the camp and examine them. If they have been healed of their defiling skin disease,[a “. But please remember, you must take into account the entire word of God if you are going to speak about a subject. Not just pull a text and say something about it. Or use only one to make a point.

  5. In my near death experience, it caused me to leave Christianity. I saw some amazing things… and something that blew my mind, reincarnation. My NDE happened in December.

  6. Remember if God exists, then so does the devil. And he can cause you to see things and dream things also. So, if you had taken the time to go to Scripture to find out about what caused you to give up Christ and gone to seek help from other Christians you would still be walking with Jesus.

    1. Joe, you could also consider that Hades did it. Or perhaps Loki. When it comes to unproven speculation, why limit yourself to just one mythology? If I were you I’d browse the pantheon of human gods and pick one that suits your personal tastes. Don’t let Gerald shoehorn you into one.

  7. Joe, I’m sure Tim is being just a little sarcastic, and having a little fun while doing so. It is so surprising that someone who doesn’t believe in God, is so bent to keep someone from believing. I mean, how is believing in God hurting anyone. God teaches to love and forgive. He tells us to be the best we can be, and when we can’t go on any further, He promises to strengthen and support us. Christ who gave His life so that we would have the opportunity to have eternal life. Tim has no proof that God is not. He only supposes this. But with so many others who testify that God is, I think that the majority should outweigh Tim’s opinion and that of any other with the same persuasion. And the Christian has proof that God is because all life is so complex and unique and so orderly, that accidents couldn’t have made life. Sure the atheists claim that all of life could have come about by accident, but they have never proven that accidents could happen on their own. Only when there is an intelligence that intervenes in the natural processes of circumstances, in a positive or negative way.
    The Atheists have never proven their theory or theories that do not include the possibility of God having had created life, could have made life without any intelligence involved. Why even the little bit of what they have done, was only done due to the intelligences of scientists who have created it. And what man has done doesn’t even begin to compare with what God has created.

    And I guess Tim is so, flabbergasted as to his inability to give a valid argument to the arguments that Creationists have provided to show that we have more evidence to believe that God created everything, that there is for us to believe in some kooky idea that life happened by chance on it’s own.

    1. Gerald writes: [I mean, how is believing in God hurting anyone.]

      Terrorism? Suppression of rights for women, gays, minorities? The Spanish Inquision, the Salem Witch Trails, the Crusades, Mary I (Bloody Mary) of England, the Armenian genocide, the Muslim Conquests (622-1924)? Ireland/Northern Ireland, Rwanda, Bosnian War, 30 Years War, War of the Roses, Pakistan/India conflicts, etc etc etc.

      You really need it explained to you how believing in a god (any god) has led to all manner of wrongdoings by men against their fellow men?

      Gerald writes: [God teaches to love and forgive. He tells us to be the best we can be, and when we can’t go on any further, He promises to strengthen and support us]

      Have you already forgotten our conversation from just last week about your god’s approval of slavery and murder? Your god admits, in the very book it wrote/inspired, that it sows discord, and invented evil, and plays favorites with certain people on Earth. this is teaching love? Your god’s terrible behavior didn’t disappear since last week, Preacher. It’s still there, and it’s still a very big gaping hole in your claim that your god has anything to do with love…

      Gerald writes: [Tim has no proof that God is not.]

      You are correct that I do not have any proof that gods don’t exist. As has been explained to you countless times at this website, you can’t prove a negative. It is up to you, the person that claims this god exists, to positively prove your claim. You haven’t been able to do that naturally.

      Gerald writes: [He only supposes this. But with so many others who testify that God is, I think that the majority should outweigh Tim’s opinion and that of any other with the same persuasion.]

      Because you haven’t been able to prove your god exists, you often resort to false logic to justify your claims, and today is no different. Once again we are presented with your appeal to the majority, attempting to establish that if a lot of people believe something, than it must be true. The fact that none of the religious believers on Earth have any proof for any of their god claims is the only thing that matters, Gerald. It doesn’t matter how many people accept baseless claims, because they are still baseless.

      Funny thing though, if we were to use your standard of “majority” as a basis for acceptance of something, then you’d have to accept the scientific theory of evolution as valid, because a majority of people find that to be true. So are you now espousing support for evolution, Preacher?

      [ And the Christian has proof that God is because all life is so complex and unique and so orderly, that accidents couldn’t have made life.]

      The fact that living things are complex doesn’t prove gods exist, including your slavery god. It doesn’t prove the Big Bang, either. As has been patiently explained to many times now, the existence of something doesn’t prove how it came to be. The logic of this is rather simple, and I wish you’d take the time to think it over instead of making this same redundant falsehood over and over again.

      To claim that “accidents couldn’t have made life” is to claim that you know everything there is to know about life and how it operates. Since it is obvious that no one can claim such a thing, your conclusion about accidents and life is pure conjecture.

      For the sake of brevity, we won’t get into the illogical concept that an infinitely more complex creator god doesn’t need to be created, whilst living thing on Earth do…

      [The Atheists have never proven their theory or theories that do not include the possibility of God having had created life, could have made life without any intelligence involved.]

      And theists have never proven their claims either, Gerald. You seem to think that science not knowing precisely how life started is somehow a confirmation of believer claims that their ‘god dunnit’. As has been patiently explained to you many times before at this website, each claim has to be proven on its own merit. You need to prove your god exists, and you need to prove your god created life. The success OR failure of science to prove abiogenesis doesn’t change your responsibility to prove your separate and unrelated claim.

      [And I guess Tim is so, flabbergasted as to his inability to give a valid argument to the arguments that Creationists have provided to show that we have more evidence to believe that God created everything, that there is for us to believe in some kooky idea that life happened by chance on it’s own.]

      Oh, I’m flabbergasted Gerald, but it has nothing to do with my ability to defeat the pseudo science crap you take from the website of your creationist masters and post here from time to time. It has much more to do with the confirmation bias and repeated use of debunked nonsense that certain people can’t seem to learn from…

  8. Tim this, “Terrorism? Suppression of rights for women, gays, minorities? The Spanish Inquision, the Salem Witch Trails, the Crusades, Mary I (Bloody Mary) of England, the Armenian genocide, the Muslim Conquests (622-1924)? Ireland/Northern Ireland, Rwanda, Bosnian War, 30 Years War, War of the Roses, Pakistan/India conflicts, etc etc etc.” is not Christianity.

    I’m pretty sure you can grasp the concept that just because many Caucasian individuals enslaved and treated a population of this earth as though they were less than animals, that you would consider that all Caucasian individuals would do the same. Or just because there have been parents of some children who “pimped” out there children and raped them when ever they felt like it, that all parents could be accused of doing the same. No. You wouldn’t. (At least I hope you wouldn’t). So there are at least two groups of individuals in ever basic group of people. There are good. And there are bad. There is the possibility of those who aren’t sure about what they are, but they go along with the flow.
    So, why would you prejudice yourself by excluding the possibility that there are “bad” Christians.
    That there are those who are or who are led to be so twisted that they think that what they are doing is correct, even though they have been told that what they are doing is the opposite of what they should be doing. Look at all the Police persons, here in the United States. All the teachers, doctors and so on and so forth. They all have rules and regulations that are supposed to govern their actions. And many do, but there are the few who think themselves better than the rules and regulations. And when you have the fact that there is an enemy who lives to lead men away from the truth, that means that the bad is magnified.
    You can continue trying to push your anti God rhetoric, really you can’t do but this, because you allowing yourself to be open to the evil influence of the enemy that I just mentioned. But. It is not too late. Just like the “Demoniac” that was possessed by the devil, in the Bible, but Jesus freed from that influence, God can do the same for you. All you need to do is want. To cry to Him. And He can and will free you. But you need to realize that for ever one bad thought that you try to implant, or spread on the net, the people who open God’s Word, will see that you are painting a picture that the Bible contradicts. That the millions of Christians will testify are erroneous.
    This is probably why your posts are taking on the semblance of desperation.

    And if “the pseudo science crap”, as you so crudely put it, is so as you say, then gather your, cohorts and use the true science to disprove it. Point out the errors in my arguments against evolution and the godless formation of this universe. Show how your pseudo sad excuse of false science can actually be what you all claim it to be. But you and I both know that you can’t. That is exactly why evolution has only achieved a mediocre hold upon our society. And why so many hold on to God, as the way the truth and the life, of each and every individual that ever lived and who will ever walk upon this earth. And this can be confirmed by the thousands of used to be atheists who now walk with Christ. And who now are inviting you and every other atheist to join them.

    1. Gerald writes: [Tim this, “Terrorism? Suppression of rights for women, gays, minorities? The Spanish Inquision, the Salem Witch Trails, the Crusades, Mary I (Bloody Mary) of England, the Armenian genocide, the Muslim Conquests (622-1924)? Ireland/Northern Ireland, Rwanda, Bosnian War, 30 Years War, War of the Roses, Pakistan/India conflicts, etc etc etc.” is not Christianity.]

      I knew you were going to say that. I almost said something to that affect in my last post, but I didn’t want to get lengthy. Since you’ve brought it up though, I will address it.

      You said “how is believing in God hurting anyone”. I obviously answered that question. All of those people, in all of those events, believed in some kind of god and thought they were morally right and just people doing morally right and just things with the blessing of their god. No one can deny this, it is incontrovertible fact. Clearly their belief led them to feel OK to hurt other people.

      The go to defense for all these horrible things is, of course, to deny that they were truly “Christian” (or whatever dogma they follow) and state that they were not therefore acting as a true believer. Problem is, they most certainly were. That they disagree with you Gerald doesn’t mean they are wrong and you are right. No one person can claim authority over everyone else’s dogmatic interpretation and declare it wrong, including you. Belief in gods has caused quite a lot of harm over the years, and there does not appear to be any let up in it either.

      Gerald writes: [I’m pretty sure you can grasp the concept that just because many Caucasian individuals enslaved and treated a population of this earth as though they were less than animals, that you would consider that all Caucasian individuals would do the same.]

      Caucasians are not the only ones to enslave people by the way. Everyone has engaged in it, including Africans (Africans, in fact, were the ones that captured and sold slaves to Europeans). Which the slavery god of Christianity was all to willing to condone in its written word…

      Gerald writes: [So, why would you prejudice yourself by excluding the possibility that there are “bad” Christians]

      This isn’t about individuals, this is about belief in gods, remember? You said “how is believing in god hurting anyone”. I’ve adequately explained how that belief is hurting all kinds of people. The fact that there are good and bad people is immaterial to the question of “how is believing in god hurting anyone”. We should note here that what is considered a good or bad person is highly subjective, especially through the lens of time. People were told by their preachers in 1800 that owning slaves was good because the Bible said so, and these people thought they were going to heaven. Calling them “bad” now doesn’t change that they were “good” in their day, nor does it change the fact that their belief in a god hurt people.

      [And many do, but there are the few who think themselves better than the rules and regulations.]

      Like your god? Don’t kill, but god kills everyone in a flood? Don’t sow discord, even though god admits sowing discord? Treat others as you would want to be treated, but put Abraham through hell by telling him to kill his son, or harden the heart of a pharaoh which leads to his people suffering plagues and having their first born sons die? It’s no wonder the belief in gods has led to so much evil happening. Gods are great role models when it comes to being cold and calculated killers…

      Gerald writes: [You can continue trying to push your anti God rhetoric,]

      All I am doing is pointing out the rhetoric of the gods. I don’t need to debunk gods, because their very actions and claims contradict all over the place and are full of illogical conclusions. Religious dogmas debunk themselves. One must merely point out how things like the word of the slavery god of Abraham makes no sense, and the job is done.

      Gerald writes: [But you need to realize that for ever one bad thought that you try to implant, or spread on the net, the people who open God’s Word, will see that you are painting a picture that the Bible contradicts.]

      Or they will open the word of the slavery god and see all the contradictions, and then a different painting will emerge in their mind.

      Gerald writes: [This is probably why your posts are taking on the semblance of desperation.]

      My posts at this website are logically and accurately discussing the contents of the slavery god’s “word”, as well as detailing out facts and data that support things like the scientific theory of evolution. If anything I’ve written is wrong, I have every confidence that someone would come along and correct them, be it LX or one of the people like you or me. Your claim shows how desperate you are to change the subject in any way possible, because in the topics of science and god you are receiving quite the thrashing.

      Gerald writes: [And if “the pseudo science crap”, as you so crudely put it, is so as you say, then gather your, cohorts and use the true science to disprove it. Point out the errors in my arguments against evolution and the godless formation of this universe. Show how your pseudo sad excuse of false science can actually be what you all claim it to be. But you and I both know that you can’t.]

      I don’t need to gather anyone, Gerald. I’m not nearly as smart as the top scientists in the world, but I don’t need to be to debunk the mindless dribble that comes from your creationist master’s websites. Every time you post a quote I’ve shown you why it is quote mined (and yet you continue to post quote mines). Every time you post a link to a believer article I’ve explained why their claims cannot be possible (and yet you continue to post those articles).

      And I’ve asked you, countless times, to verify and validate the information being provided to you by both your creationist masters AND by me. I’ve almost begged you to pick up a science book, or visit a university, or speak to a college professor, and find out for yourself the truth of these things. Instead you keep blindly drinking the pseudo science crap at a few websites, and continue to post that garbage even though you know that they lie and manipulate and deceive in their articles.

      The problem behind all this or course is that you are not honestly engaging in intellectual discourse here. You have no desire to actively debate things in a forthright manner. You think you hold a golden ticket that is going to allow you to live for longer than a billion billion years, and have become so entrenched in that mythology that you fear consideration of anything else. You clutch your coping mechanism with a fevered grip, unable to even want to think clearly.

      [That is exactly why evolution has only achieved a mediocre hold upon our society.]

      51% of Americans younger than 30 (as of 2014) accept secular evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life found on Earth. 73% of them accept some version of evolution. Clearly the validity of the science is becoming obvious to more and more people. As dinosaurs like you, who are too afraid to make an honest effort to examine the facts of the matter, start to die off, American society will continue to progress towards reason and logic as the basis for what they accept.

  9. And I can not believe, you would walk into a wall of “oh come on’s” like you just did. This,
    “You said “how is believing in God hurting anyone”. I obviously answered that question. All of those people, in all of those events, believed in some kind of god and thought they were morally right and just people doing morally right and just things with the blessing of their god. No one can deny this, it is incontrovertible fact. Clearly their belief led them to feel OK to hurt other people.”
    sorely meets the type of intelligent logic you are think yourself of achieving.
    How could you suggest that they did what they did because God made them like what they are, when God is clearly telling us to love one another. All of what you mentioned occurred when the Bible had been printed and in the Bible the New Testament is included. Where do you see, as it is in the Quran, that it is okay to try to force people to believe in God. Even in the Old Testament God clearly showed that Israel was supposed to attract the nations attention to them so that God could be uplifted and be recognized as the One, True God. This was God’s only goal. Not to force worship. Any of the individuals who perpetrated any of these acts did so because doing what they did was their true god. They did not worship the true God, because if they were they would have accepted what Christ said to the disciples who asked Him if He wanted them to call down fire upon the city that didn’t like Christ’s decision to leave. Here. Let me give you the true feelings of God for us, for you, even while you denounce Him. Please read Luke 9.

    “53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
    54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
    55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
    56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.” If you care and dare to read through this whole chapter. Hopefully you will read the whole book and see that what God’s desire for man is salvation and eternal bliss for each of us. It clearly show’s God’s intention for man. And after reading this from the New Testament read this from the Old Testament in Jeremiah 29.
    ” For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
    12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
    13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
    14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

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