Macro vs. Micro, bird and the egg, and deceitful theists.

Todays Question comes from Charles who asks…
“My question is in reference to the theory of macro-evolution.

I’ll start by saying that I was an atheist for around 5 years of my life but am now a Christian. I fully believe in micro-evolution as it is evident and has been proven Macro- evolution however has gaping holes in it that need answers.

Let’s discuss the first bird. We can all agree birds are hatched from eggs but what came first, the egg or the bird? Also did the first bird breathe? Did it breathe before it evolved lungs? How did it do this? Why did it evolve lungs if it were happily surviving without them? How did it know what needed to be evolved if it’s brain hadn’t evolved yet? Did the bird have a mouth? How did it eat before it had evolved a mouth? Where did the mouth send food before a stomach evolved? How did the bird see what there was to eat before it’s eyes evolved?

I’ll end with a quote from Prof Louis Bounoure, Dir of Research, National Center of Scientific Research: “Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.” ”

Answer by Jake:
Charles, if I thought evolution was what you think it is, I wouldn’t believe in it either. Fortunately, I know what evolution is. Let’s see if I can’t course correct your lost ship and help you navigate the sea of facts.

First, micro evolution. There’s no such thing. Evolution is evolution. It’s like saying “recycling”. You can recycle a big thing like a car, or you can recycle a little thing like a can. Either way, both have to go through the process of recycling. Both are stripped down, melted or shredded and then formed into something new. There’s no micro recycling nor is there macro recycling. The same thing applies to evolution. Both little things and big things go through the process of evolution. The only difference, just like in recycling, is the amount of time it takes to evolve. Big things take longer, little things go faster. To claim that they are two separate things, you would have to show the process that separates the two. You can’t, because there is none.

Next, your “which came first” question. The answer is simple, the egg came first. When the bird became what we know today as a bird, it was maybe 1% different from it’s parent. Evolution happens gradually. In increments. It doesn’t happen all at once. A bird doesn’t decide it needs wings and then just grows wings. It doesn’t decided it needs lungs and then grows lungs ( like your examples above. ) That’s not how evolution works and is why I said in the beginning that if I thought it was what you think it is that I wouldn’t believe in it either. I’ll give you a reference at the end of this reply so that you can learn what evolution is for yourself.

Lastly, your quote. It’s wrong. What you’ve probably done is read a christian website that misquoted the professor in order to try and justify their beliefs. It’s a dishonest tactic and if you had simply done a google search to check the quote, you would have learned of it’s dishonesty for yourself. Here is the explanation for the quote and where it came from. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part12.html

While you’re at that website, check out the rest of it. Talkorigins.org is a great place to learn not only about evolution is, but what it isn’t as well. I would start here http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html and read over their FAQ section. You may be surprised at how much misinformation you’ve been fed by your fellow believers. Once you realize this try asking yourself why they mislead you to begin with?

One last thing. Keep in mind that evolution neither proves nor disproves gods. There are many people who still believe in a god and accept evolution. They see their god as the one who set evolution in motion. Although I don’t accept their conclusion that a god exists, I still appreciate that they at least recognize the overwhelming evidence for evolution and don’t try to twist it in order to suit their agenda.

15 thoughts on “Macro vs. Micro, bird and the egg, and deceitful theists.”

    1. Its like asking, which came first, the beta version of Facebook or the public version. Both are still Facebook but the public version is different than the beta version due to small changes in the code. Same thing with your bird.

        1. Instead of trying to figure out what I believe, why don’t you look again at why you believe what you believe? I’ve shown you how your quote was dishonest, doesn’t that bother you? I’ve even shown you how your understanding of evolution is wrong. What else do you believe that isn’t based in truth? I can’t teach you everything. You have to learn for yourself. I can only point you in a direction. Don’t believe anything that I tell you, discover these things for yourself. Like your quote, it would have only taken you a minute to discover that it was taken out of context and was misleading. Why didn’t you do that to begin with? Are you trying to understand what’s true or are you just trying to find anything you can to fit your agenda?

          1. wow man get over yourself I’m really trying to understand where you are coming from I have no doubt of my beliefs as I have had experiences that undeniably prove the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible All you have done is give me a run around with no concrete answers And yeah I’m sorry about the untruthful quote You act like untruthful statements haven’t been made about Christianity But if you had a clue you would realize that I’m just trying to help you understand what I believe is the truth and help you to see it You have obviously been fed a false doctrine of Christianity and dumped it in with all other religions If you’re gonna get offended then why do you even have this site?? There are so many different beliefs of how this all started I am just trying to get your point of view But it seems that you have hardened your heart and filled your mind with so much information that isn’t so that I am just wasting my time

    2. The problem with your questions is that they show that you don’t know what evolution is. That kind of information isn’t difficult to find on your own, and in my experience most ppl who ask questions based on the type of misconceptions you have aren’t actually interested in knowing. They’re usually ppl who are actively trying *not* to understand what it is.

      If you *are* really interested in knowing what it is, I recommend starting with the “Our Origins Made Easy” series of youtube videos. The youtube users Donexodus2 and cdk007 also have play lists about how evolution works.

  1. Wait. Let me get this straight. You come here asking questions based on misleading information and an ignorance of the topic, and when I show you the truth and suggest that you learn for yourself, even giving you links where you can learn for yourself, you tell me that I need to get over myself ? WTF ?

    And what concrete answers have I not given you? I gave you links with detailed explanations. Do I really have to do all of your work for you ?

    Also, you don’t have undeniable proof of your god. Proof of existence demands objective facts. You don’t have any. If you did you wouldn’t need faith.

    It seems to me you’re the one on the defense. Look at how you deal with the misleading quote. You first say that you’re sorry about the quote but then you go on to justify it by saying that atheists have made untruthful statements about Xianity? Where is the acceptance of responsibility? It’s like I’ve caught you stealing and your excuse is that other people steal too. So that makes it okay? Is that really an example of the morals you believe your god has given you?

    I get it Charles. You want me to do all of the work for you. You aren’t willing to learn for yourself. I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to explain all of abiogenesis or evolution or the Big Bang to you. These are broad subjects which require months of study. You want to know what I believe? I believe in science. I believe in objective verification. I believe that the only legitimate way of determining existence is through objective verification. I believe that if a person really truly wants to understand something, that they will study it. You obviously don’t believe that.

  2. Charles, a lot of confusion arises from not knowing fully how evolution works. There is an excellent work by Ernst Mayr titled “What evolution is” that you may consider reading.
    On the chicken and egg question, the species in which the process of ejaculation of a fertilized egg evolved or first came through was probably very different from the modern chicken. But then over millions of years, a species/ branch/ hybrid which was the same as wild chicken emerged from branches/ off-shoots of the original species. We then domesticated that bird and got our modern chicken. So in a way the egg (the process of ejaculation of a fertilized egg that is) did indeed come before the species (chicken).
    I invite you to go through this wikipedia link on the chicken and egg dilemma … read the section titled science and the one titled religion … I leave to you the judgement of which explanation sounds more reasonable – the scientific or religious/ philosophical.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg

    Its difficult to digest that what you call “gaps in macro evolution” led you away from atheism and back to religion. Maybe you need to search harder for answers to puzzles/ things that seem strange before giving up and coming to the easy “goddidit” conclusion. Arguments from personal credulity aren’t really sound arguments for theism.

  3. Charles said: “But if you had a clue you would realize that I’m just trying to help you understand what I believe is the truth and help you to see it You have obviously been fed a false doctrine of Christianity and dumped it in with all other religions.”

    Well Charles, that certainly is a slightly different motive than trying to understand evolution. Anyways, I think the one of the most important points here (depending on your motive) is that the validity/truth of evolution has nothing to do with the validity/truth of a creator/deity. So even if evolution is disproved at somepoint, that still does not prove or disprove a deity. Proving evolution does disprove certain scriptures, yes. But the concept of a deity existing does not rely on evolution being false.

    1. Jake, pump the brakes on your ego bud. All I wanted to know was what your beliefs were but you went all sensitive and soft on me. Abiogenesis or the big bang was all you had to say and you could have whined and complained to someone else. And what is this comparison with the egg and facebook?? Also a thief is comparable to someone who misquotes?? terrible

      I will end with this.. evolution is a brilliant study and I believe parts of the theory are obviously true but there are still parts that I cannot believe but my disbelief literally had nothing to do with me becoming a Christian.. on the other hand the Bible is infallible and the archaeological, historical and prophetic evidence is undeniable if you were to study the good book like you study nature. The prophecies of the return of the Jewish state and it’s neighbors waging war against them, the rise and fall of Greece and Rome, the destruction of Tyre and Sidon, all the Messianic prophecies, the apostate religion(Catholicism), false christs(popes), the soon to be formed world government/religion system, and literally thousands of other prophecies that have been fulfilled to the T are a testament to it’s truth as well. The rise of the new age religion is prophetic as people give way to familiar spirits. Turn to Jesus Christ my friends and seek eternal life after this one ends.

      1. Sorry, the Bible is absolutely fallible. Eg: the flood of Noah is not a global flood and did not have the destructive effects as described in the Bible.

        Also. The numerous prophecies in the Bible that did not come true (I love the one where Jesus said the world would come to pass within the lifespan of his generation).

        Further. All the numerous DIRECT contradictions in the Bible which means certain things CANNOT be true.

        It’s easy to find examples of the things I’ve listed. Don’t be lazy.

        1. Aurelius, actually the biblical flood happened exactly as it said and the generation you are referring to is the fig tree generation that began when the state of Israel was reenacted in 1948 Nice try though

      2. “All I wanted to know was what your beliefs were but you went all sensitive and soft on me. Abiogenesis or the big bang was all you had to say”

        You asked about evolution, presenting questions about it that are based on misconceptions about what it is. A good response to that is to correct your misconceptions or direct you to a website that does, which is what he did. Saying “abiogenesis or the big bang” would not have been a good response.

        “I will end with this.. evolution is a brilliant study and I believe parts of the theory are obviously true but there are still parts that I cannot believe”

        You definitely can’t state whether it’s true or not true if you don’t even know what it is.

        “I’m just trying to help you understand what I believe is the truth and help you to see it”

        As Adam pointed out, that’s clearly a different motive then just wanting to know what our beliefs are. Don’t misrepresent your motives. Also, don’t ask about beliefs that you have no intention of trying to understand. It wastes our time trying to explain something that you’re trying *not* to understand, and it wastes your time because you can’t convince people that their beliefs are wrong unless you first understand what their beliefs are. If you have no intention of learning what evolution is, then you’re just jerking everyone around.

        “the biblical flood happened exactly as it said”

        If you believe this, then your beliefs about science are entirely shaped by your religious beliefs. You don’t believe in Christianity because its supported by scientific evidence. You believe its supported by scientific evidence because you’re a Christian. That being the case, there’s no common ground on which we can debate these issues.

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